Forum: General F-16 forum

I find Air to Air very appealing compaired to A - G.

I feel that A - A is more appealing due to the fact your up against someone who can defend themselves equally as well. Its just you versus him. Your both willing to put your lives on the line for your contry and freedom. What thrill can be greater than this? It's higher speed than armies fighting, it can all be over in seconds...

But for most pilots from the time the blip comes onto the radar to the time the aircraft hit the ground is what they have lived for, trained for their whole lives. As for me... If I'm gonna go I wanna go like that, against someone who did it not for the hate of me but for the sake of his life.

In A - G its not like that. You are basically taking out defensless targets. I see it as A - G is a job and A - A is what you waited for your whole life.

I'm postive some of you don't agree wtih me one bite but thats just my opinion. Whats yours?

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Well, it's not totally defenseless. Today there are the SAM-13 and the modified HAWK g-a missiles. And about that,

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see it as A - G is a job and A - A is what you waited for your whole life.

I disagree with you, because in a-g you can defend your country from ground invasion, and it's not less important than a-a.

KickURanus, it seems to me that you forget certain things about today's battlefields.

Unless you're flying stealths, there's not much room to hide in the skies. On the contrary, throw some mud, grass and leaves on an infantry troop and unless they're in the desert or in the snow, you'll only know they're there when they start shooting missiles at you and tear your jet apart with their guns.
Planes can't (yet) take ground. Combat aircraft can attrit, immobilize, demoralize and ultimately destroy their targets, but they can't CONQUER them. At the end of the day it's down to the PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry) to go in, finish things off and raise the flag over the objective. And when it comes to that, you normally want your PBI to be in better shape than the other guys.
You don't have to defeat an air force in combat (especially when it's a very big one). What you can do is cut their bases of from the supplies they need and in due time they will raise the white flag of their one accord. Or you can blast their bases. This just goes to show how Air-Ground can win the Air-Air battle.
Given today's weapons available to the average infantryman, anything with an engine is a potential target that can be destroyed. All it takes to detroy a multi-milion dollar plane or tank and kill its crew is a couple of infatrymen (or infantrywomen ) with decent shooting skills and knowledge of their equipment.
Air-Air WAS a very chivalrious form of combat in the first 60 years of the 20th century, but things have changed. Today, one side is massacaring the other and there is little or no exception to that, so in this respect, it is little different from your view of Air-Ground.
Every single bit of artillery, air, armored, naval, intelligence, comms, explosive, fortification, etc. equipment that you see was designed to ultimately aid the soldiers going into combat on foot. Have a close look at every one of them and you'll see my point.
Have you ever tried bombing an AAA position? I haven't (too young for that) but from what I've heard it's a real eye-opener as to how 'defenseless' ground pounders are.
The ones who send people into battle can be found on the ground most of the time and that if you want to end the conflict quick it's a good idea to take them out. In this case Air-Air is merely a sideshow. Air-Ground combat is the main event coz unless whoever is targeted gets to a plane, it's pretty unlikely he or she will sprout wings and fly off.
Don't think that if you will ever get shot down (let's hope it won't be the case) by the people on the ground, then they did it out of hatred. They too did it for the sake of their lives. Whenever a soldier kills an enemy in combat he does it because he believes one of two things: it will either keep him alive or it is for the greater good. Killings out of hatred are for after the battle when the hard feelings start to surface.
Do you think that battlefield has EVER been a fair place? Hell no, ever since the first people picked up sticks andstones and started fighting each other, the mightiest has always won (take a close look and you will see that the winner of every war and indeed every battle had some overwhelming advantage on his side... even luck counts), and THAT is the sad truth about warfare.

Don't get me wrong, it's also my ambition is to become a fighter pilot, and from my current point of view, if my death will benefit the people I care about (the people that I am ultimately ready to fight and die for) then I will sacrifice myself. It might seem stupid and immature, but in the end we all die; I'd rather die for a reason.

However, you must understand that there are certain realities about the battlefield that you can't ignore. They stick out from thousands of years of lessons (as weird as it might seem, no lesson taken from the history of warfare is obsolete) and they will probably stand valid for many years to come.

Anyways, good luck in becoming a fighter pilot and maybe we'll meet in the skies some day, on the same side, hopefully.

Phoenix makes good points. A2A isn't so much about 'shooting the other guy down' as it is about securing the airspace over the battlefield. Wars are fought to gain (or defend) the ground and its resources - the airspace (and A2A) is just an extension of the battlefield.

GregD

I agree with KickURanus. Isn't dogfights wad we train for? I mean as pilots we train our whole lives for that fight in the sky not for the mud moving exercise. We are pilots... the air is our area so why care about the ground... it's just another job or another order. In pilot train to fly twist and turn, roll and bank and pull neckbreaking Gs... emphasis is on flying not dropping.

We are told how to fly in certain ways that can kill a untrained man and the air is more than just an extension of the battlefield... it's a whole new dimension to fight it is its own battlefield in itself and that is all I care about.

Do you know that in training, you fly day and night just to have a dogfight or two in the sky but how offen do we drop iron on targets.... hardly ever!

I've said all I wanted to say and my stand is that the sky's the limit. Pilotq fight to keep the skys free for bombers and the like not for themself to fly ground to blow something up.

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the air is our area so why care abt the ground...its just another job or another order

That's so NO!

Think about it... I will give the best example that I can think about right now. The Osiraq nuclear reactor, just near Bahgdad. The year is 1981, and it's the last opportunity to destroy it before Iraq gets a nuclear power, and without putting the residences of Iraq in danger. 16 F-16's of the IAF attacked the reactor, with a great success. Now you tell me, how would you do it without the "useless" a-g capability?

I remember a good quote from a A-10 pilot that I got from this site

"You can shoot down every MiG the Soviets employ, but if you return to base and the lead Soviet tank commander is eating breakfast in your snack bar, Jack, you've lost the war"

— Anonymous A-10 Pilot

bingo

Here are some other quotes:

"Fighter pilots make movies, attack pilots make history."
- Anonymous -

"Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies. And don't believe those mudmovers who try to talk about history, either. Without the air-to-air stuff, I'll tell ya who's history..."
- Anonymous -

Gladiatos wrote:

Do you know that in training, you fly day and night just to have a dogfight or two in the sky but how offen do we drop iron on targets.... hardly ever!

You'd be surprised... almost every fighter plane also has at least a secondary ground attack capability and pilots train to employ it just as hard as they train for Air-Air. Proof? Even planes that on entry into service were dedicated interceptors ended up doing this. Just look at the F-14 and the Su-27 (well, its offsprings anyway and that's what most people currently use if they can afford a plane int the Su-27 class). Even the F-22 can drop bombs...

IMHO this is proof enough that everybody understood that if you don't move mud, then you don't even have to bother about gaining air superiority. It'll be useless anyways.

Furthermore, there can be nothing more frustrating than having your jet loaded up with Air-Air ordnance and on the ground under you your guys are getting their asses kicked and unless you plan to turn into a kamikaze there's little you can do about it.

You all have to [Link pending approval] it is Air to Air or Air to [Link pending approval] will need the ground [Link pending approval] Maintainer!! Lets hear it for the Crew Chief!!! arrrrrroo!

You Might Be a Maintainer [Link pending approval]
1. You've ever slept on the concrete under a wing
2. You've ever said, "Oh yes sir, it's supposed to look like that."
3. You've ever sucked LOX to cure a hangover.
4. You know what JP4/JP8 tastes like.
5. You've ever used a grease pencil to fix an overworn tire.
6. You have a better benchstock in the pockets of your coveralls than the supply system.
7. You've ever used a piece of safety wire as a toothpick.
8. You've ever had to say, "My boots are still black!" (or ever spray-painted them black)
9. You refer to a pilot as a "stick actuator."
10. You've ever been told to go get "some prop wash and a yard of flightline."
11. You've ever worked a 14 hour shift on a aircraft that isn't flying the next day.
12. You've ever said "as long as she starts every other try you'll be fine sir."
13. You believe the aircraft has a soul.
14. You talk to the aircraft.
15. You've ever said, "That nav light burned out after launch."
16. You've ever used a wheel chock as a hammer.
17. The only thing you know about any city is where the good bars are.
18. You know more about your coworkers than you do about your own family.
19. You've ever looked for pictures of "your" aircaft in aviation books.
20. You can't figure out why maintenance officers exist.
21. You ever wished the pilot would just say, "Great aircraft!"
22. You take it as a badge of honor to be just called " a Det Hound."
23. You relieve yourself more often outdoors than indoors.
24. You can't comprehend why everyone doesn't want to be a Maintainer.
25. You think everyone who isn't a Maintainer is a [Link pending approval]
26. You can sleep anywhere, anytime, but as soon as the engines shut down you are wide awake.
27. You've ever stood on wheel chocks to keep your feet dry.
28. Used dykes to trim a fingernail.
29. Wiped leaks immediately prior to crew show.
30. Worn someone else's hat to chow.
31. All you care about is the flying schedule and your days off.
32. Wondered where they keep finding the idiots that keep making up stupid rules.
33. You've ever had to defuel an aircraft an hour after refueling

Remember all of those Su-37 might be impressive in the air but when they are on the ground they're nothing but ground targets and what I've been reading while I've been in this forum the Viper can't dogfight that aircraft unless the heavens open up and the SU-37 gets gets struck down by the same force that opened the Red Sea.

O yeah, Crew Chiefs really own aircraft, pilots just rent them Wink

Amen brother! Air to Mud is much more fun. It's not hard to launch a missile from 40 miles out... then hit the target... and that takes the fun out of close range fighting. Wink

Well said Spadforce 1, but remember:

"WITHOUT WEAPONS, IT'S JUST ANOTHER AIRLINE!" Smile

Either mission is cool, provide the jet comes back empty. Although there is something about loading a jet up to max capibility.

Spadforce1, truer words were never spoken. I've done all those things at least once including freezing my lips to an oxygen connector one winter morning to try to clear alcohol fog. I sure caught some flack over that.

To all the crew-dogs reading this: Keep kickin' the tires and lightin' the fires!

Forum: General F-16 forum

What is it about Air to Air?