Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

As the F-22 production line comes to a close (apparently), what reasons are there for such a low production run? Which is the predominant factor that sealed such a fate for this marvel of an aircraft?

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My own (completely amatuer civvy) opinion is that the US has enough already for everything it needs, you may say "what about China and thier hordes of fighters" but in in my opinion any fight with China would not take long to go nuclear anyway.

As for Russia, I do not think they could field half the numbers they claim to be able to anyway and are more of a paper threat than for real for at least a few decades, especially judging from thier Georgian war air ops..

In my opinion Russia is less of a threat than China in aircombat terms (discounting the Russians suppossedly good S-300 and 400s though again I think America has enough Raptors to counter that threat too.)

Another amateur (completely civvy) opinion here too: I was HUGELY disappointed by Gates' announcement to cap production. But in retrospect I think of this as, in a way, a back-handed complement to US and allied airpower: A nominal "silver bullet" force of F-22's is probably all we need at this time, coupled with current 4th gen assets. For example, DarthAmerica in another thread said something about the PLAAF, one of the few potential adversaries that might require F-22 presence that struck me: while equipped with powerful Gen 4+ A/C, PLAAF does not at this time possess the infrastructure or numbers to project this air power much beyond their borders. To make a broad assumption, Russia is also in a similar boat - not in a position to offensively challenge the US or its allies in an all out fight on our turf - again at this time. I LOVE the F-22 but especially with the F-35 standing up in the next 5 years I would rather see the money spent preparing for the next 6+ gen aircraft - for when (because it's not an IF) the PLAAF and Russian AF realize their full power potential, and the F-22 is entering the latter years of its service life.

- JetNerd

The Obey Amendment may be a factor, as exports cannot be facilitated.

If the Obey Amendment was lifted to enable Japan, Israel and Australia to purchase Raptors, production numbers would surge.

Even if the amendment was amended (heheh), it would still be hard to push a deal through. inasmuchas they are the top 3 interested. As close an ally as Japan is, there is still the sting of a security issue (Aegis technology was compromised a few years ago by Japanese personnel - very embarrassing), F-22 is very expensive for both AUS and Israel (Israel is giving us a hard time about the price of the F-35 alone). Plus I there is still I think strong will in Congress to keep Raptor technology inside US borders.

I think what should have been added to the poll is the fact that we are still paying for 2 wars, money that could have been used to purchase more airframes. And as Gates has pointed out on several occasions, more F-22's are not a priority given that fact that they are not crucial or needed to carry out operations in the middle east. All of the points above could be used to explain why more F-22's are not needed. I don't think there is one solid reason for capping production, more a combination of factors.....

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

IMAO

The reason for low production is liberal fascism. Our priorities are all screwed up. The main reason that our founding fathers founded the federal government was to protect and defend the United States and its interests. We have relative peace now because we have been powerful and reasonably/relatively moral; we are becoming morally bankrupt and weak. Because of liberal fascism we are spending money bailing out corporate cronies and ineptness, union cronies. Through excessive taxation we are punishing the honest hard-working and smart successful people and businesses; and we are rewarding (thereby encouraging), corruptness, ignorance, incompetence and laziness with bailouts, excessive entitlements and a snobbish hypocritical victim mentality.

The poll and the thread is flawed because it assumes that the little production is justified.

I feel that the quantities of F-22’s is way too low. Some F-22’s will be lost to attrition bringing numbers even lower.

It’s too bad we can’t spend some of the money on F-22s and JSFs that Obama and his liberal fascists are spending to buy votes with cigarettes, and spending money beachfront property, and inept photo op publicity stunt that terrorizes New Yorkers, kickbacks to big business and kickbacks to unions. Obama and liberal fascists are destroying our manufacturing sector; thereby destroying our country.

Obama reminds me of one of my ex-girlfriends. She signed a contract for $500 worth of magazines a year; a several year commitment; because she could get the first months magazines “free”. She spent $150 to have her hair and nails done. She spent $400 to get a new outfit. She spent about $200 on illicit drugs. To her it all made sense (she was so happy with herself); however the money she spent was for her car payment, car insurance, and her share of the rent and food. I responded by telling her she had eight hours to get her stuff out or I would start throwing it out. I think we should do the same with Obama and the fascist liberals ( that includes most if not all of Congress ( Republicans and Democrats and independents) ). I think Obama should be recalled and or impeached.

The last time I saw her she was homeless, jobless, carless, and bumming off her parents and anyone else that would foolishly fall for her con.

cywolf32 wrote:

I think what should have been added to the poll is the fact that we are still paying for 2 wars, money that could have been used to purchase more airframes.

So? That’s probably money well spent and just a drop in the bucket compared to what Obama and his fascist liberals have squandered. Obama has only been in office a few months and I think he already has spent more giving payoffs to Wall Street, big business, and unions while giving the common man the shaft. The estimated amounts of spending that Obama has committed for the next decade if I remember correctly is estimated to be more than what the government has spent in the entire history of our country. Liberal Fascism is bankrupting this country economically and morally.

"Liberal Fascism"? I'm assuming that's from the book...

Anyway, I think it's the lack of requirement for a high-end air superiority fighter in very large numbers. There's simply not anybody that is going to be able to deal with the existing F-22 force combined with even modest F-35 numbers for the foreseeable future. Russia and China are struggling to make something that can compete with an F-15SG, much less an F-22. I also think what's often is ignored is the lifetime costs of an F-22 are enormous- it's not a cheap plane to operate, and those costs accrue very fast.

I don't think Obama's done that bad... there were alot of things that affected F-22 production, and by the time Obama took office, the number was down to 187. Don't get me wrong. I do not like war but I am not against defending my nation. But I just think Obama is being given too much credit for either being good or being bad, depending on the view of the person. The guy has had alot to deal with and only time will tell if he's going to be a good one.

That said, I do not like that the government (and notice I said GOVERNMENT, not Obama or Gates alone) is going to end F-22 production. It seems that the money being spent to jumpstart F-35 production would be better suited AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME to buy Raptors. I don't think 187 is enough to defend us for 20+ years. We will have to see how the F-35 stacks up, because if it's as good as LM says it is, then I'd say the situation's going to be ok (though not as good as it should've been). We are borrowing against our future, and as anyone should know by now, that is very dangerous - because you cannot predict what will happen years from now.

Come on 'Crash; don't hold back buddy, tell us how you truly feel.... LMAO

You could always live in The Republic Of Texas if things get too bad....
(I'm sure they'll be building F-22Bs an F-35s to defend the republic Cool

)

Ever see this clip? http://www.joost.com/0946cnf/t/Jericho- ... id=0946cnf
(Note: 30:00-32:55)

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Double post: but thought this had some bearing on the topic.
(At least it is accepted as "main stream media" Rolling Eyes

)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03326.html

TEG Thumb

Tinito,

Sorry for not voting, since:

The predominant reason for the low numbers of F-22 as initiated by US's former SecDef and demanded by present SecDef is because of the need to fund other, perceived as more important USAF programs, such as KC-X and F-35. While the F-35 program is, over the next 5 proposed years still unfunded, just as the F-22's 3 year proposed 60 would-be-fleet budget is unfunded, it's simply 'decided' that the F-35 program will consume the yet unfunded budget funds, rather than F-22. Nothing more.

A flawed decision and misconceived geo-strategic policy, but that's another thread..

A boss of mine once said, if a good program gets CNX'ed, it's not because there wasn't enough money, but rather not enough priority.

That said, my biggest issues with the F-22 production termination are:
1) Using total cost rather than flyaway cost as the cost basis that led to the decision (most of that was R&D and we're not getting back
2) The industrial base for building high tech aircraft was small enough already; this could prevent our ability to ever build one again when (not if) it becomes necessary
3) The stated belief that the JSF is good enough (not a chance)
4) What a freaking waste of R&D investment.

As an aside, I just read that the administration may reconsidering the CNX of the new Marine One. Apparently they finally realized the R&D $$ they'll lose as well as the contract termination costs they'll have to eat...and get NOTHING in return.

I don't see bureaucracy and political idiocy as one of the options.

Lack of planning/narrow-minded thinking/? Shrug

(not on the list of choices)

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana, U.S. philosopher & poet

When WWII broke out exactly how many fighters did the US have?
How did they stack up against AXIS aircraft when we joined the ALLIES? Doh

Good thing we HAD the production/industrial/engineering base to close the gap quickly...

There were 15,686 P-47 Thunderbolts built between 1941 and 1945...
How many Raptors could be produced today if we suddenly found ourselves in an "all out war" where 187 wouldn't be enough?
Since 1997 when the first F-22 rolled off the line, we haven't built 200 over 10 years later? WTF

"Yes; I would like 4 dozen doughnuts please, but I only want them delivered one at a time evenly spaced over the next 3 years... Oh, I can only pay for them in yearly increments, so can I get a fixed price on what they'll cost in 2012?.... "
LMAO

Just my thoughts...

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Reasons for low F-22 Production (opinions)