Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Since the F-14 Tomcat's retirement from three decades of exceptional service with the United States Navy, there has been no suitable replacement (don't consider the Superbug as a viable one).

But there may be one lurking round the corner:

Welcome the F-22N Sea Raptor, a navalized variant of the world's most advanced 5th Generation fighter for the USN and USMC.

It would be the most beneficial tool for the Navy and Marine Corps.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-090209-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230209-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-040309-1.html

What do you think?

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We're in a really bad economy, these things just don't happen in times like these - unless we have a war with someone who has a competent air force.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

I thought that there were already many threads already started on this subject.

Anyway in a dream world it’d be nice if they could just slap a recyclable Tailhook onto an F-22 and use it for the Navy. However it would require extensive modifications and certifications that would be very expensive and probably result in virtually a new aircraft. The Navy needs ruggedized aircraft with ruggedized landing gear, ruggedized airframes and all the hardware has to be tested and certified for a salt water environment. The maintenance facilities on a carrier may not be able to handle the maintenance required. Etc….

It would probably require so much modification and be so expensive that it would probably be best to start from scratch and just use the knowledge that we have gained from the F-22 program. That’s essentially what was done with the JSF.

As Tinito_16 indicated we don’t have the money for such a program because our economy is collapsing because we voted in politicians with a socialist agenda. Not enough money is being spent on the military, technology and infrastructure; too much money is being spent on pork and corruption under the guise of bailing out our economy.

We can't even afford enough F-22’s for the Air Force; let alone afford the most advanced systems that we could put on them; to start designing and building a naval life version. Our government is so cheap we haven't even gotten the AIM-9x ( or its hardware) on the F-22 yet in operational units. Our government is too cheap now to equip it with the sensors and electronics that it was first envisioned with. Some people call the F-22; the castrated F-22.

I think it’s the most capable fighter in the world; but if Washington wasn’t so tight with the purse strings on this program it would be much more capable. Politicians are too busy diverting money to programs that give cigarettes and cash to buy votes; to bribe corrupt businessmen for votes and campaign funds in trade to bail them out.

Washington is too loose on the purse strings with the pork and too tight on the purse strings on things we really need. Washington doesn’t even properly support our soldiers or veterans.

The Navy didn't want it. There was a NATF program at one point, but the Navy backed out of it.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t/natf.htm

But the Marine Corps would want the F-22N Sea Raptor to replace their legacy Hornets.

Since the Marines handle the bulk of dangerous missions, they deserve the best hardware, i.e. the sharpest razor sharp spear.

ATFS Crash, the "politicians" subverting your country are the ones I find undesirable. They are more dangerous than the Russkies or Chicoms because they are emasculating the military, the most valuable source of national security and force of liberation.

They, the corrupt politicians, were chosen for you, and you had no choice.

If the Sea Raptor were in service with the Navy and Marine Corps, in sufficient numbers and piloted by TOPGUN graduates, i.e. one Sea Raptor squadron per carrier and a few NASes, along with four or five Marine squadrons, they could operate and attain air dominance with impunity!!!

skyhigh wrote:

But the Marine Corps would want the F-22N Sea Raptor to replace their legacy Hornets.

Since the Marines handle the bulk of dangerous missions, they deserve the best hardware, i.e. the sharpest razor sharp spear.

That statement is pure nonsense!!

ATFS Crash, the "politicians" subverting your country are the ones I find undesirable. They are more dangerous than the Russkies or Chicoms because they are emasculating the military, the most valuable source of national security and force of liberation.

They, the corrupt politicians, were chosen for you, and you had no choice.

If the Sea Raptor were in service with the Navy and Marine Corps, in sufficient numbers and piloted by TOPGUN graduates, i.e. one Sea Raptor squadron per carrier and a few NASes, along with four or five Marine squadrons, they could operate and attain air dominance with impunity!!!

Maybe you hadn't noticed, but we already do have air dominance with impunity anywhere we so choose.

I meant the F-22N Sea Raptor is the wonder "air dominance platform" for the Navy and Marine Corps...

...if the Navy and Marine brass had the will to procure them.

The Air Force folks flying the Raptor would be delighted to conduct joint air dominance operations with a Sea Raptor-equipped Navy and Marine Corps.

Sea Raptor = Distributor of Sukhoi parts!

It's rival is the Su-33 Flanker-D.

Skyhigh,

Where did you ever hear that the Marines would want to replace their Hornets with Raptors, cuz its pure news to me. And what part do you not understand. The NAVY does not want the Raptor, which is why it bought the superbug instead. I would assume part of that reason being that the A-12 progam blunder didn't leave money to do much else....just an opinion of course. The Marines are a branch of the Navy, which is why they operate Hornets and Harriers. All spending is done based on priority. Lets not forget the Navy also wants aill kinds of ships,submarines, etc... there is only so much money in the end. If we weren't paying for two wars and a recession, things might/would be different.

F-22N I agree with crywolf32, ATFS_Crash and others it will NEVER happen cost is too prohibitive. As far as the Marines go as cywolf32 already pointed out, their funding goes thru the Navy (why do you think they're still using AH-1 Cobra's and UH-1 Hueys)? And if the Marines are dedicated to anything with air power (besides supporting the troops on the ground) its V/STOL! See the MV-22 and the F-35B. A navalized F-22 wouldn't fit with the Marines.

cywolf32 wrote:

Skyhigh,

Where did you ever hear that the Marines would want to replace their Hornets with Raptors, cuz its pure news to me. And what part do you not understand. The NAVY does not want the Raptor, which is why it bought the superbug instead. I would assume part of that reason being that the A-12 progam blunder didn't leave money to do much else....just an opinion of course. The Marines are a branch of the Navy, which is why they operate Hornets and Harriers. All spending is done based on priority. Lets not forget the Navy also wants aill kinds of ships,submarines, etc... there is only so much money in the end. If we weren't paying for two wars and a recession, things might/would be different.

This is just conjectural stuff. If the Marine Corps were to operate Raptors, it would be easily able to attain air dominance in hostile airspace and territory and is survivable in an enemy IADS environment as if the Air Force were doing the job, clearing a highway for friendly forces to move at comparative ease with the enemy air threat suppressed.

Skyhigh, that's really an amazing 'ausairpower insignia' found on their website. An FB-22 for AUS? They'll skip right over the Raptor? Gotta respect that attitude.. Thumb

Re: F-22N/USMC... you do understand that such an acquisition process would most likely help result in '0' F-35B/C, '0' F-22N and '0' additional block II SH, with all the unforseen new Navy R&D costs/delays? They'd have to replace Hornets with navalized Reapers? But honestly, for another discussion perhaps: I wouldn't object to a 2018-type USMC CAS role evaluated/studied for comprehensive transformation to UCAS-D type UCAV, Reaper-N and equivalent, plus attack gunship. (perhaps early on Leased USMC F-35A mods could replace Hornets as a possible mix?) Otherwise, Air dominance is USN/USAF/allies AF mission.

As for some real disagreements, as I see them: the past US admin or DoD per se, or current admin's blunders, corruptions and incompetencies in general are not the biggest liability to readiness/capability, it's the Military Acquisition process over the decades and up until today (seems to be starting to squirm a little, just recently though - which is a good thing) which creates blunders and shortfalls and sovereignty lapses. As crywolf stated, refer to A-12 disaster as just one recent example. And I know I catch flak on this, but I'm truly surprised the F-35 program has made it this far (but truly hope it won't implode just 100-200 units into production - worst case historical scenario).

Furthermore, I'll have to disagree with one thing ATFS_Crash said on a similar note: Sir, the US has MASSIVE defense budgets, even the proposed FY10 is an INCREASE! The DoD should be able to better equip the Defense services dollar for dollar given their immense budget, based on future oriented posture and deterrence. Period. The issues therefore, are rather catastrophic failures in the ability to form continuity in long-term, accurate estimates and planning, - on which to formulate shrewd, sustainable, responsible acquisition - based on all future contingent threats to national security and defense. I.E., every 4 yrs it flips, flops, or plops with an eager round of sorry finger-pointing rapidly deployed! Mostly the defense industries seem to be the most secured - minus some normal business cycles and consolidations.

I know, that's more than 2 cents.. just my observations and conclusions.

The Marines will not get F-22's if the Navy is not, period. There would not be enough made to justify the cost of developing it. When we fight wars, its not just the Navy, or Air Force, or Marines going in to do battle. It is a coordinated effort using the best of whats available from each branch to do the mission based on threat assesment. Your comments while I am sure are in the best intentions, are frugal at best. As an analogy,the A-10 is arguably the best CAS platform out there, but neither the Navy or Marines operate it just because of the fact that it is good for that particular mission. Same with the Harrier and its short field performance. Only the Marines operate it. Hell, I would have loved to see the F-14 in USAF markings, but it wasn't needed. I could ask what if questions all day, like what if worms had shotguns so birds wouldn't f*&^ with them. I would love more Raptors no matter who operated them, but reality right now says it won't happen anytime soon. If anybody is going to get more Raptors, it will be the USAF. Wink

skyhigh wrote:

But the Marine Corps would want the F-22N Sea Raptor to replace their legacy Hornets.

No they don't. They want the F-35B to replace their legacy Hornets.

Quote:

Since the Marines handle the bulk of dangerous missions, they deserve the best hardware, i.e. the sharpest razor sharp spear.

And they are getting it. F-35...

Quote:

ATFS Crash, the "politicians" subverting your country are the ones I find undesirable. They are more dangerous than the Russkies or Chicoms because they are emasculating the military, the most valuable source of national security and force of liberation.

They, the corrupt politicians, were chosen for you, and you had no choice.

Whoa. Tin foil hat time...

Quote:

If the Sea Raptor were in service with the Navy and Marine Corps, in sufficient numbers and piloted by TOPGUN graduates, i.e. one Sea Raptor squadron per carrier and a few NASes, along with four or five Marine squadrons, they could operate and attain air dominance with impunity!!!

Uh, huh. What's it like, living in Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon's fantasy land?

Where have the USN and USMC operated where their air combat elements have not dominated, already?

Every F-35C flying intercept roles will likely have 6 AMRAAM 120-Ds (Block 4/5 planned) and within 5 years of IOC the JDRADM will give it even longer & jamproof ranges.

They can always slap on a few more external AAMs and drop the pylons after launch. They are already working on LO pylons to go with the AAMs.

JDRADM will likely allow the carriage of 10+ AAMs internally.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

I think considering the F-22 for a nasalized version may be appropriate for discussion in the type of brainstorming session that has no boundaries on preconceptions. However those brainstorming sessions have a second phase where they are analyzed considering current technology and reality of constraints; though I feel the F-22 is worthy of consideration in that type of brainstorming session I feel that the realities will rule it out. Though some of the technology will be used in aircraft under development or in future use.

Conan wrote:

skyhigh wrote:

ATFS Crash, the "politicians" subverting y
our country are the ones I find undesirable. They are more dangerous than the Russkies or Chicoms because they are emasculating the military, the most valuable source of national security and force of liberation.

They, the corrupt politicians, were chosen for you, and you had no choice.

Whoa. Tin foil hat time...

I disagree Conan. I don’t care for some of the language he used or the way he put it because I interpret it as slightly racist. However I do agree that our politicians and our political correctness is largely destroying our country from within. (keep in mind that many subverts actually think they are doing good because they have been duped and because of their shallow mindednes/naïveté. Hitler probably thought he was a good man. Hitler probably thought at times that he was doing the best thing for his country and his people; though in the end he nearly destroyed his country and his people. In the end Hitler became so greedy {drunk on power} and delusional that he was willingly and knowingly sacrificing the country and the people that he supposedly loved. Remember that Hitler and Nazism was extremely popular for several years)

So I largely agree with his first paragraph; though I have a considerable disagreement with the second paragraph. I disagree that we “had no choice”. There was a choice; a process called elections. Regrettably the process is corrupt and contaminated by political correctness which severely limited the quality of candidates. I chose the candidates of lesser evil. Regrettably for the most part I lost. I believe in our system of free elections; however popular votes don’t necessarily guarantee that the best make it to the top. Like they say scum often floats. I’m hoping as the country continues to deteriorate; that people will wake up and smell the coffee and that we will get back to the values and policies that made this country great.

I will put forth an idea that many shallow minded people will think it is a tinfoil hat idea. I feel our country is being subverted from within and from outside. I feel it is much like described in the communist manifesto; I feel that the US and some other countries are being subverted through demonization (hatemongering) and political correctness (liberal fascism). I feel that anything clear from terrorism, biased media coverage, to wacko environmentalism is being used to subvert, demonize and destroy democracy/capitalism. I feel that wackos “Islamic” terrorists, other racists, communist, socialists, secessionists, anarchists, atheists, religious extremists are all more or less independently forming a “perfect storm” to weaken capitalism/democracy and the US; all of them hoping that they can destroy the US “without firing a single shot”. If it gets to the point where they start thinking they have succeeded; then that’s when the extreme violence will probably start; as all those interests vie for power. It could happen in many ways (and likely to trigger a chain reaction once it crosses a threshold); secessionists, racists, and/or anarchists rioting in the streets of the US. UN or other foreign occupation of the United States. China forcefully taking Taiwan, and possibly leapfrogging to Australia or some other region. Soviet Union going for Europe. Arab nations going for Israel; then vying for power between each other.

I feel that if people don’t wake up and smell the coffee in the next few months or few years that capitalism and the US could fail; and it could result in World War III and Armageddon. I feel that we are on the highway to hell, and that if we don’t have a course correction that we’ll eventually will destroy ourselves and possibly the world.

I find it alarming that some religious extremists like the Iranian mullahs actually seem to embrace Armageddon and seem to be striving for it.