Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Has the F-15 (any variant/country) ever flown operationally with any other engine besides the PW F100?

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Korea had started off their Strike Eagle ops with GE 110s. However, all new E's being delivered to the ROK will have PW 100s.

I have read the F110s are a better engine (at least in the F-14 and F-16). Seems strange to me there would not be more F110 equipped Eagles.

The Singapore F-15E variant (F-15SG) is GE powered too.

Ski

darkvarkguy wrote:

I have read the F110s are a better engine (at least in the F-14 and F-16). Seems strange to me there would not be more F110 equipped Eagles.

Matter of opinion.

BTW I believe Saudi Arabia is looking at F110s for the F-15S due to some F100 durability problems in it's Eagles, but the GE will likely suffer the same heat stresses as the F100s are... Two Cents

Yes the F110-GE-100 was a better engine than the PW-200 that was being used in the F-16A, and the TF30 of the F-14. It opened the door for the GE F110 to enter the Viper, and Tomcat programs.

The PW-200 was not a stellar motor when it was introduced, and the PW-220/-220(E) solved many of it's problems, then the PW-229 was developed to counter the increased performance of the GE-100/-129.

The PW-229 is equal to (and surpasses in some respects) the GE-100/-129.

If you notice Korea has changed it's mind about the F110 in the Eagles it has purchased, and the second batch will be motored with PW-229s. Most F-16C/D sales of late have been the Block 52+ w/PW-229 engines.

I don't know what the deal is with the GE-132, but since UAE put them in the Block 60 Vipers, nobody else has ordered that engine... (Not even for the Eagle..?) I'm not sure if it's cost, reliability, or durability, but after 80 GE-132 engined Vipers were produced for the UAE, there has not been further production.

As for USAF purchases; Congress dictated to use a 50/50 buy split between GE F110s and PW F100s. With the Eagles getting ALL F100s that forced the purchase of 2 Block 50 Vipers for every Eagle built, then the rest of the Viper production was split in half between Block 50/52. It resulted in about 75% of USAF Block 5X being GE powered.

You will also notice that the USAF Thunderbirds have never used a GE powered Viper for their team.

(Knocking on wood...) The PW-229 has not suffered a aircraft loss due to engine malfunction in USAF service. (Eagle or Viper)

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TEG

If some of the specs I've seen for the -229 and -129 are to be believe the F100 should be a lot better than the F110 at high speeds. The exhaust is about 1000 degrees hotter and it's pushing the air a LOT faster.

I was waiting to see your input TEG, I cant count how many of these PW vs GE engine debates you have had to educate people on (myself being one of them). SO based on another thread of the loudness of the F135, and the above statement by sferrin, does that mean the Pratt is louder than the GE?

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

SO based on another thread of the loudness of the F135, and the above statement by sferrin, does that mean the Pratt is louder than the GE?

Yes; in my experience being at bases where both GE-129 and PW-229 Vipers launched, the PW was notably louder than the GE. Even being on base (away from the flight-line) I could tell if it was a PW taking off.

PW-229s have a longer, bluer flame to them as well. Cool

I've yet to find a decibel chart that shows the differences for each engine's noise plot, but I'm still working on it...

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TEG

Well to really understand which is better you have to ask the pilots who fly them. I'd love to know some pilots opinions about the motors, I know there are some threads around here on them. I should dig them up, but I remember rave reviews for both engines. Quoting specs will only get you so far and often turns into a debate throwing numbers and subjective statements.

Hehe, long blue flames coming out the back means they're not burning the fuel where they should, too little resonance time so it's burning outside the combustor or forming excess NOx.

Now I have to say, I'm biased for the GE engine... that's because I'm currently working on something new in the combustor. Hopefully, it'll go into service, I'd love that.

To the best of my knowledge;

''Bluer'' flame (meaning more hot) is better than less blue flame and far more better than yellow flame.
''Longer'' flame (meaning more by-products of combustion) is worse.

The "Longer" the flame in this case is higher velocity exhaust; the Pratt's exhaust is a LOT hotter/faster than GE's... If the combustion was worse, the augmentor plume would loose it's blue color.

An augmentor plume isn't your "typical flame." You have to consider the exhaust is traveling about MACH 3 when it exits the engine at over 3000* F.

One can make a cutting torch flame longer by adjusting the pressure of fuel and oxidizer being pushed through the nozzle. It can be short/blue, long/blue, short/yellow, or long/yellow. The longer/bluer = faster/hotter.

We talking core combustors here, or supersonic flow within augmentor combustion chambers and plumes? I'm only worried about heat; heat=power (Emissions are for tree-huggers...) Poke

Does it matter how much NOx is produced if you're burning 50K+ lbs/hr? Shrug

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TEG

LordOfBunnies wrote:

Well to really understand which is better you have to ask the pilots who fly them. I'd love to know some pilots opinions about the motors, I know there are some threads around here on them. I should dig them up, but I remember rave reviews for both engines. Quoting specs will only get you so far and often turns into a debate throwing numbers and subjective statements.

I agree with you there, but the problem is, while most US Viper pilots have learned to fly in PW-220 powered Block 25s at Luke AFB, and have graduated into Block 30/40/50s. There are few US pilots who have actually flown a PW-229 jet due to their limited numbers in the USAF. The PW-220s from their training days would seem "weak, underpowered, or wimpy" compared to the GEs of newer Vipers.

The only US units with PW-229 powered Vipers are Nellis (52), McIntire (52), Toledo (42 w/-229), and Tulsa (42 w/-229). (DesMoines (42 w/-229) briefly before the latest BRAC changes) Have any of them flown a GE powered Viper to compare? A better chance would be Edwards or Eglin who have a bit of everything...

I'd think recent sales of the Block 52+ (and not Block 50+) Vipers would be somewhat of an indicator... Cool

Sorry for the dual-posting... Doh

TEG

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

.........
It can be short/blue, long/blue, short/yellow, or long/yellow.
..........

Generating the same thrust; an engine with a short & blue flame is burning its fuel more effectively than the engine with a longer & blue flame.

Am I wrong?

Note: Yellow flame will be the worst. It will also, in most cases, smoke.

r2d2 wrote:

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

.........
It can be short/blue, long/blue, short/yellow, or long/yellow.
..........

Generating the same thrust; an engine with a short & blue flame is burning its fuel more effectively than the engine with a longer & blue flame.

That would depend on the exhaust's velocity...

While a blue flame is of the proper fuel/air ratio, efficient, and hot; the velocity plays a roll in how much "power" is being made.

I can get a blue flame off a can of 'Sterno' but it won't provide much thrust... LMAO

Now if you put that can behind a blower to provide more airflow... Shrug

TEG

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

r2d2 wrote:

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

.........
It can be short/blue, long/blue, short/yellow, or long/yellow.
..........

Generating the same thrust; an engine with a short & blue flame is burning its fuel more effectively than the engine with a longer & blue flame.

That would depend on the exhaust's velocity...

While a blue flame is of the proper fuel/air ratio, efficient, and hot; the velocity plays a roll in how much "power" is being made.

I can get a blue flame off a can of 'Sterno' but it won't provide much thrust... LMAO

Now if you put that can behind a blower to provide more airflow... Shrug

TEG

Always wondered how good (not just thrust) the NK-321s and NK-25s in the Blackjack and Backfire-Cs were. They have some of the bluest flames I've seen.

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

F-15 engines