Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

I am writing about the F-22 really but thought this topic was relevant in this forum section.

A key to the success of the Raptor will be its weapons so I was wondering if someone could please tell me what programs if any exist to develop the next AAM on from the AIM-120C?

I see that there is the AIM-120D and that is designed to fit internally. But what about an AIM-121 et seq? I see remarks about ramjets etc but nowt on Wikipedia for example about the missile the Raptor will be using in 2020?

Thanks in advance
Royzee

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Royzee wrote:

I am writing about the F-22 really but thought this topic was relevant in this forum section.

A key to the success of the Raptor will be its weapons so I was wondering if someone could please tell me what programs if any exist to develop the next AAM on from the AIM-120C?

I see that there is the AIM-120D and that is designed to fit internally. But what about an AIM-121 et seq? I see remarks about ramjets etc but nowt on Wikipedia for example about the missile the Raptor will be using in 2020?

Thanks in advance
Royzee

Keywords: Joint Dual Role Air Dominance Missile and NCAGE

Perhaps a bit outdated, but good source on the future USAF missile roadmap:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004guns/wed/selfpropelled.ppt

There is talk of 8 internal JDRADMs on the F-35, but I'm not sure if this is being studied for the F-22.

Regards,
B. Bolsøy
Oslo

Many thanks. I suppose these things are secret. But I have to know if they are working on something - I can't find reference to any successor program anywhere.
Cheers
Roy

if you suppose they are secret, then dont ask, and if they are secret, then no you dont have to know

Good point. Maybe I phrased it badly. I know a bit about AAMs but you guys are amongst the experten. A quick question here could save me ages looking for something that doesn't exist. I mean, just because it ain't on Wikipedia doesn't mean it is either off limits or non-existent.

In some respects the F22 is the delivery system for the AAMs but unlike the other fighters it has an internal bay so in some respects it might be able to consider a specialised weapon of some sort. After all it has many other systems unique to it.

Range / payload is as much a trade-off for the missile as the plane. You don't have to only improve the launcher but also the weapon.

So what I supopose I am asking is the missile armament a worthy enough match to the F22? I mean the F14 had its own special weapon. So maybe there is one out there but I don't know of one.

maybe, maybe not, but if you dont have the clearance or the need to know (which I assume you have niether), if such a system exists suffice to say it will be a long while before you hear anything about it...

Yes indeed. No one else want to help out please?

I am familiar with the way things are done and usually there is a press release stating that the DoD has commissioned a new program to develop the AIM121 or such like. Like they did when the AESA radar in the F22 was to be upgraded etc.

Sounds like there was nothing about that issued.

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

Research and Development never ends. Whether or not anyone sees something operational out of the R&D is determined by how successful it is. The best place to find news about stuff is Aviation Week. They seem to know everything before anyone else. They recently reported, as well as Raytheon, that they've successfully tested the first -120D model.

JDRADM is where we are going.

Boeing recently picked up couple of contracts for seeker work this year. It will be dual mode (radar and IIR).

For some thoughts on what the JDRADM (and JDRADM-LITE) might/should look like, try this thread:
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... 141426#top

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

Why not just put a Scramjet and a mini AESA radar on the AMRAAM? I know P+W are working on Scramjets. They could call it the RAMRAAM (Ram-Ram) as opposed to the Brit ASRAAM (A$$ RAM). Very Happy

It's called the KISS principle.

Keep It Simple Stupid

The GD AAAM proposal far outclassed the radar of the F-14 and would probability go well over 250km.

It's ability to reengage it's rocket motor guaranteed full thrust and maneuverability in the end-game engagement.

One of the reasons that the Meteor has taken so long is the problem with it ramjet working at different angles of attack.

Rockets are simple, rugged, and dependable. Their performance and control laws are well known.

As far as an AESA radar, the JDRADM does not need it as it gets mid-course updates from the launching aircraft and can use the IIR seeking in the endgame without ever going active. Even if it does go active, the GD AAAM is under full power and TV control in the endgame. The target will NOT be able to evade it. ECM maybe, but outmaneuvering it is not an option.

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

Spud, I'm not doubting that it would be more difficult to R&D a new missile but I think it would be better in the long run. P&W already have a working scramjet and they are testing it further. That would take about ten more years to put into an operational asset. They are developing the scramjet for the FALCON missile anyway, why not add a second application to the AMRAAM? But right now, I think the AESA would be a more pressing choice since it would be able to go active farther out. Why should we be stuck supporting a missile if it can go active off the rail and we can run away bravely?

As for the Meteor, the reason it's taking so long is that the Brits haven't figured out a way to make it leak oil.

Scramjet/Rocket combos are more complex and weigh more than a purely rocket only solution. For example, the Hughes AAAM (Ramjet version of the AAAM) weighed almost twice that of GD's AAAM (Rocket only AAAM). It was also much wider and could not be carried in the bay of the F-22.

Take the Meteor for example. With it's fixed intakes, even with possible folding fins, you could not place as many of them in the bay of a F-22 or F-35. Compare that to the folding-fin slender body of GD's AAAM which has a possibility of 8 per F-22 belly bay and 4 per cheek bay (for a shortened version).

Here is a good article on the AAAM program (the 2nd and 3rd page are accessed on the left of the screen).

On the AESA note, nothing wrong with it, and I see it's benefits, but it might be a bit cost prohibitive. The AESA solution also requires two magnitudes (ie 100x) of an increase in computing power.

Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

Successor to AMRAAM?