Forum: F-16 News

Last edited by Meteor on Oct 30, 2008 - 05:40 PM; edited 1 time in total

We used to have a standard for determining the severity of an incident; Was it a "crime" of "omission" or "comission"? In other words, did the pilot screw up because he didn't realize that he was doing something wrong, or did he know he was doing something wrong and go ahead and do it anyway?

As an example, did the pilot on an air-to-air ride inadvertently descend below the floor of the area because he didn't realize that the floor had recently been raised from 5K to 10K AGL (a crime of omission), or was he fully aware that the floor was 10K and descended below it repeatedly to gain an advantage in the fight (a crime of comission)?

In the case in question on this thread, was the incident a crime of omission or comission?

For those that live in the US and are not familiar with European attitudes:

World War II ended 63 years ago. We were once a force of occupation. A lot of Europeans would like to know why we're still there?

The Cold war ended with the fall of the Warsaw Pact 20 year ago. A lot of Europeans would like to know why we're still there?

Europe is a densely populated area, more so even than the US northeast. There is essentially no open countryside anywhere in Western Europe. Thus all military training happens above densely populated areas. How many low level routes, MOAs, restricted areas, bombing ranges, artillery ranges, armor manuvering areas, etc, does the US have in the Boston to Washington corridor? Imagine trying to conduct a Red Flag exercise in Pennsylvania. That's what goes on in Europe all the time. A lot of Europeans don't even like their own air forces conducting this training over their houses, which is why they have moved a lot of it to Canada and the US West. They certainly don't like foreigners (us) buzzing their homes.

We Americans haven't exactly made ourselves popular in recent years. Remember the EA-6B that flew too low and sliced the cable on a tram in northern Italy? A lot of people died in that incident. Imagine if one of the German Tornados based at Holloman did that at a US ski resort....

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Hi Guys,

I'm back again, after a long time 'off'. But i've decided that I do really want to become a fighter pilot!!! So i'm back! I have a question about this article, in Holland I know the minimum altitude at which they fly is 75 meters AGL(don't know it in feet). And I can understand that without prior consent of the German AF the minimum altitude is 304 meters AGL, but why the 5 P.M. rule? I know it's darker after 5 P.M. but there are no very tall hills in Germany I believe. So you would fly over them right? And I can understand the noise must be spooking the residents but you hear them sometimes here (in Holland) because some stupid pilot doesn't identify himself so they will scramble some jets, which go in AB and low-level. So I don't really get the whole point. So if somebody could explain it, that would be nice! Call me stupid, but remember guys, i'm only 16 and not a pilot. So i'm not really up to date on dangers and rules.

Regards,
Tim

After 5 PM, people are coming home from a busy day at work or school, and want to settle down and have a quiet evening. Farmers are bringing in their livestock for the night. People don't want to hear the noise of aircraft, especially one who is flying too low over the wrong area at the wrong time. I can understand why people would be angry about this.

Meteor has it right. Flying over Germany is a lot like flying over Boston and NYC. A large population density compressed into a small living area, again, roughly the size of Texas. If you could imagine that you had Boston, NYC, LA, Chicago, and Houston all packed into an area that size, you wouldn't be too far off.

Back when Pops was stationed at Bitburg, they used to go TDY to Zaragosa, Spain for AA and AG training, because there was simply no space to do it in Germany. Actually, it was an even smaller space then, because Germany was still divided in half.

I can understand some of the "Yankee Go Home" attitude that the locals have, and it wouldn't surprise me if some more European bases get hit on the next round of BRAC.

BRAC's really aren't a part of overseas locations. They are controlled in a very different maner and I don't quite understand it. Bottom line is they can close a oversea's base and not even ask unless it is part of a treaty. With a BRAC it gives Congress a chance to defend there ground in a true sense of the word........not losing jobs!!!!

guess I should start complaining about the Tornados flying here at Holloman after 10pm at night.

Forum: F-16 News

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