Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

This question has probably been asked before but I am a new guy and was just wondering about the canon. The specs say it fires at 6000 rps and the F16 has a drum that holds 511 rounds. At that rate of fire it takes 5 seconds to empty the drum. Does the pilot have any way to control the time of fire like a 2 second burst or a 4 second burst so all the ammo is not used up on one firing sequence? Is the gun used for strafing even though it has such a short time of fire? Has the gun ever been used for an actual combat kill?

Thanks, Ed

F-16.net Sponsor

Edpop,
Yes to all. I squeeze the trigger count a potato (or watch the target explode) and then release the trigger. Typically the burst from the gun is on the order of about 50 bullets. When your firing the gun and you hold the trigger for 1 second, it feels like an incredibly long time. If your wondering if I program the gun to fire for two to four seconds, no. Just squeeze the trigger and release for the desired number of rounds.
The gun is used quite often in Iraq and Afghanistan in the strafing role. It is sometimes preferred in engagements because of collateral damage concerns. Yes the gun has recorded numerous combat kills not only on the ground but in the air. The 20mm gun is carried by both the F-15, F-16 and F-18 (plus a whole bunch of other fighters) and it has been in Air to Air combat dating back to the 60's. Just go check some USAF and IAF websites or ACIG.org to read about the gun kills.

I have a question about the M61 in A2A combat. Perhaps they have already thought of this or it actually works this way, I don't know.... Wouldn't it make sense if you could program the gun to only fire in A2A combat when you have fireing solution? Meaning, squeeze the trigger but the gun only fires when it has a high probabilty of hitting the target aircraft, rather than spray the sky and hope for a hit, or hoping your reaction time was fast enough. Save on amunition and possibly avoid friendly fire accident.

Good idea... Anyone got a answer to if they have tried this or if its possible

Since the gun has to spool-up, isn't a one second burst going to be actually less than 100 rounds? I've heard closer to 60. The F-22's M61A2's lighter barrel was designed for faster spool-up as well, right? It seems like I've heard this somewhere (maybe here) or am I making this up?

Quote:

Good idea... Anyone got a answer to if they have tried this or if its possible

the russians have. the GSH-30 30 mm Cannon. on the Su-27 and MiG-29, this cannon is linked to a laser range finder and the IRST. it will only fire if the target is in the kill zone. due to the power of the shell, 1 to 5 hits can bring down a fighter sized aircraft.

Quote:

Since the gun has to spool-up, isn't a one second burst going to be actually less than 100 rounds? I've heard closer to 60.

The pistole' does take a fraction of time to spin up and spin down but not 40 rounds worth. Closer to 8-10 rounds.

Quote:

the russians have. the GSH-30 30 mm Cannon. on the Su-27 and MiG-29, this cannon is linked to a laser range finder and the IRST. it will only fire if the target is in the kill zone.

bwhaaha haa ha......ahem...sorry about that outburst...no really... Laughing

haaaaaahahaahahaah........ LMAO

tanktop,
The AFTI F-16 had just such a system installed for evaluation. However, it did much more than what you suggest. The radar was linked to the flight control system and when the target was within range, but way off the bullet flight path, the pilot could designate the target. Then the flight control system automatically maneuvered the airplane to track the target and fire the gun at the correct time.

Last edited by outlaw162 on Dec 05, 2008 - 01:00 AM; edited 1 time in total

That could be tough on the old back & neck, not to mention blood flow to the brain.

I would guess the algorithms weren't sophisticated to the extent of fitting in any subtle offensive maneuvering adjustments if necessary. Probably pure lead pursuit. I guess you better well hit him before the overshoot or mid-air.

I assume there was an override.

regards, OL

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 27, 2004 - 10:49 AM Posts: 70

I know the following quote isn't about guns, but it shows what happens when you use your fancy autoaim and don't know how to properly employ it.

enjoy! Wink

Auto-aqcuisition targets and Russian fighters:

Quote:

During the first night of the Gulf Air War, a "stream" of eight Strike Eagles (F-15E's) were making their way towards an attack into Western Iraq. It was one of the few times when the Iraqi Air Force had risen to the challenge and was aggressively trying to locate and shoot down the attacking formations. The Eagles were navigating on LANTIRN FLIR imagery as well as their internal systems and were aware that a MiG-29 and an attached MiG-23 were both searching for them trying to find the line of Eagles running in about 7-10 NM. trail. One of the last F-15E's watched (on radar and FLIR) as the MiG-29 came down the line of Eagles from the high left side with the MiG-23 is 3-5 NM. trail. Suddenly he must have finally gotten a radar or IRST contact because the MiG-29 turned sharply down and actually flew right in front of the previously targeted F-15E who was arming up, but at the same time not making any obvious moves or lock-ups. As the MiG-29's nose came around a missile came off and ran smack into his MiG-23 wingman coming down in trail. The aircraft blew up in a large fireball. The MiG-29 pilot then must have gotten disoriented because he flew right into the ground. After action speculation on this event noted the Russian "habit" of flying around with the trigger squeezed waiting for the auto-acquisition modes to grab a target and shoot a missile. Why the MiG-23 didn't respond to the MiG-29's interrogation as a FRIENDLY could possibly mean that they had their IFF's turned off, or the MiG-29 was not interrogating, or the pilot selected "MANUAL PREP" and fired at the first locked target.

Quote:

Auto-aqcuisition targets and Russian fighters:
Quote:
During the first night of the Gulf Air War, a "stream" of eight Strike Eagles (F-15E's) were making their way towards an attack into Western Iraq. It was one of the few times when the Iraqi Air Force had risen to the challenge and was aggressively trying to locate and shoot down the attacking formations. The Eagles were navigating on LANTIRN FLIR imagery as well as their internal systems and were aware that a MiG-29 and an attached MiG-23 were both searching for them trying to find the line of Eagles running in about 7-10 NM. trail. One of the last F-15E's watched (on radar and FLIR) as the MiG-29 came down the line of Eagles from the high left side with the MiG-23 is 3-5 NM. trail. Suddenly he must have finally gotten a radar or IRST contact because the MiG-29 turned sharply down and actually flew right in front of the previously targeted F-15E who was arming up, but at the same time not making any obvious moves or lock-ups. As the MiG-29's nose came around a missile came off and ran smack into his MiG-23 wingman coming down in trail. The aircraft blew up in a large fireball. The MiG-29 pilot then must have gotten disoriented because he flew right into the ground. After action speculation on this event noted the Russian "habit" of flying around with the trigger squeezed waiting for the auto-acquisition modes to grab a target and shoot a missile. Why the MiG-23 didn't respond to the MiG-29's interrogation as a FRIENDLY could possibly mean that they had their IFF's turned off, or the MiG-29 was not interrogating, or the pilot selected "MANUAL PREP" and fired at the first locked target.

Doesn't hold for gun employment, however.

No auto trigger in any current fighters.

Quote:

tanktop,
The AFTI F-16 had just such a system installed for evaluation. However, it did much more than what you suggest. The radar was linked to the flight control system and when the target was within range, but way off the bullet flight path, the pilot could designate the target. Then the flight control system automatically maneuvered the airplane to track the target and fire the gun at the correct time.

Scary. I'm not thinking this was wildly successful otherwise it would probably warrant use in current and future fighters.

Heck, we have enough trouble just convincing acquisition types to put the pistole' on an aircraft.

Right, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you should do it. AFTI had a similar system for dropping iron bombs on ground targets too. Pilot would designate the target, then the airplane would maneuver itself into position, drop the bomb at the proper time, then get out of there as quickly as possible. The drop could be made in a level turn, something like a horizontal toss. The airplane had an all aspect radar altimeter, so automatic maneuvering close to the ground seemed feasable.

It seems the conclusion is that using smart bombs is better than using smart airplanes.

Hmm, and smart pilots make for smart airplanes. So in perhaps in a gun fight, pilots = auto aquisition? Shocked

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

The easiest way to guarantee an A/A guns track is to make your target fill up your HUD. Easy to do with Eagles.

Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

Vulcan canon