Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

The show was NOT as great as previously indicated. I love Skyraiders, but I wanted to see Aardvarks at the time. Confused

And that guy is an F-22 pilot, eh? He should stick to his day job. Two Cents

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TC wrote:

Well, maybe if Duke Cunningham gets his Prez. pardon this year, then he could take over. Laughing

Political corruption aside, I always found him to be entertaining during interviews about aerial combat, and he has a great voice for narration.

I've heard that he goes into the "Aviation Legend, Real-Life Jerk" category, along with Yeager.

Besides, his Ace mission always seemed rather silly to me, because he managed to almost get himself and his RIO killed after their last MiG by flying over a known SAM area.

Habu, with all due respect, I have to disagree with you about the F-111. I admit to strong bias toward the Vark since I devoted 10 years of work to the development of that beast. First no one, repeat no one, ever considered it to be a "fighter". It was a pure deep strike airplane, one of the best ever. And superior in range and speed to the F-15E which replaced it.

StolichnayaStrafer said it did pretty well in Vietnam after the bugs were worked out. The only bug was a small link in the horizontal tail control mechanism. After three of six F-111s were lost, the remainder were withdrawn until the problem could be identified and solved. Later forty eight were sent back and compiled an excellent record. They flew many thousand missions in all kinds of weather without tankers, without fighter cover, on single airplane attacks, losing six airplanes. It had the lowest loss rate of all combat airplanes in Viet Nam and flew some of the most difficult missions.

For those not familiar with the development history of the F-111, it was intended to be a fleet defense aircraft for the Navy (not a fighter) and a deep strike aiircraft for the Air Force. Obviously, compromises were necessary to make the basic airframe perform both missions. Since the Navy never wanted the airplane, they found a way to cancel it, thus saddleing the AF airplane with much unnecessary weight and complexity. Added weight was mostly in the fuselage backup structure for the landing gear and tail hook and the main landing gear. Added complexity was in the leading and trailing edge flap systems,

Certainly there were other development problems, but in the end the F-111 was a great airplane.

The TFX specification called for a deep strike/fighter bomber, and it did involve fighter capability. While the focus of the design was interdiction, it was touted as a jack of all trades. When this was quickly dispelled, then the focus of the design, became the only parameter.
Like I said, I'm not discounting its achievements. Hell I even have a small collection of 1/72 kits, ready to build. And I know it flew missions in Vietnam with good success. but they were later in the war, and not in great numbers. They proved several things could work, like strikes without ECM aircraft, all weather, etc etc...
While successful, it was not great in number or scope.

At any rate, the show featured the Skyraider, not the F-111. I can understand your affinity for the aircraft, and appreciate your work. But the operational histories of both of these aircraft speak for themselves.

The point I did not make well was if the Navy had not been involved, you might have a different opinion. The F-111 could do things no other airplane of its time could do. Think of all the "firsts" - first production swing wing, first afterburning turbofan, first crew escape module, first terrain following radar, first (I think) rolling horizontal tail, first use of RAM, first use of composites (boron horizontal tail - only one ship set though). Then think of its unique capabilites - huge weapon load, long range, STOL capability, speed range (130kt to 2.5 mach). The success of the F-111 lead others (Tornado, MiG-23/27, B-1A/B, Blackjack, ...) to use similar layouts.

I watched the Skyraider show last night and was astounded at the loss rate. A great airplane brings its crew home better than that, like the F-111.

In Desert Storm, the F-111 had by far the highest mission success rate of all aircraft.

Although I respect your viewpoint, I still have to disagree.

Habu wrote:

At least his voice isn't as annoying as Mack's on Futureweapons.

And he doesn't seem to get a hard on and start whispering everytime he handles a weapon system. But now Moga has switched to civilian apparel, LMAO.

Oh no worries, we'll just have to agree to disagree. The Navy had no choice but to be involved. McNamara mandated it so. But they never really had much interest in it. They went through the motions, just so they could summarily reject it. But they did take the TF30 though, and put it in the F-14. And you're right, it had the first afterburning turbofan, but it was plagued with problems. It was the first production swing wing, but again, that technology was an engineering blunder. It never provided the benefits it was thought to. Sure does look cool though! The radar was something good that came out of it, but again, plagued with problems throughout its service life. But I will give its pioneering aspect is due credit.

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

I've heard that he goes into the "Aviation Legend, Real-Life Jerk" category, along with Yeager.

Funny story about that...and I'll repost it from another older post:

TC wrote:

I recall several years back, a Navy exchange pilot, and TOPGUN instructor that came to Tyndall to fly Eagles. When people would ask if he knew Randy Cunningham, he would always shake his head and say, "That man would have been an Admiral if he hadn't pulled out his d*ck and stepped on it too many times."

They say that Duke was one of the best pilots in the world, and that he would be the first to let you know that too. Laughing

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

Besides, his Ace mission always seemed rather silly to me, because he managed to almost get himself and his RIO killed after their last MiG by flying over a known SAM area.

Now, on this one, I'll side with Duke. Having flown in combat myself, I can tell you that ground fire comes unexpectedly. It's what you do AFTER the shots start flying that make or break you.

Sometimes flying into a hostile situation is unavoidable. In this case, Duke said that the SA-2 that hit "Showtime 100" was unseen. However, once hit, and when it was obvious that a safe landing was out of the question, Duke did everything he could to keep the plane airborne for much longer than it should've stayed airborne.

He essentially "walked" the plane to the coast, using rudder and afterburners. About a mile off the beach, the empennage exploded off of the fuselage, and only then, in an inverted flat spin, did Duke and Irish punch out.

That was a truly amazing feat of airmanship, and hopefully, Duke and Irish earned another DFC just for that portion of the flight...on top of the Navy Cross each earned that day for their 5th kill.

I thought the show was fairly good, if a bit redundant at times.

About Duke - I got to meet him twice during different Miramar airshows. Both times he was as nice and gracious as could be Smile

I noticed that too. He kept repeating the same concept in different terms. The Skyraider was old when it was new...it was of an outdated design....it served past its prime....it was a prop in an age of jets...blah blah blah. Yes! We know! We get it!

Yup, cut it down to 1/2 hour and it would be better. Of course, it might also help to DEMONSTRATE SOME OF THE SYSTEMS OR EVEN FLY the airplane when you've got one of 'em RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU Wink

Anywho, since we're talking Spads here, I figure a pic is in order Thumb

Haha, ah yes. Isn't that from the Nellis show where we met up?

I like the way they did the old Wings shows better- more footage and shots of the actual aircraft, with an UNSEEN narrator.

And better narrators as well.

You're not just whistling dixie, Stoli! Like I said, Ron David was my favorite. Low, booming voice, perfect annunciation, inflection where needed. I also liked Stuart Culpepper, who still makes it into some shows. And I can't for the life of me remember the narrator for Firepower. I've been watching some old Wings episodes on Youtube, for nostalgia.

Had a bunch on tape from way back when, they really don't work on newer VHS players too well. Sad

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

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