Forum: F-16 News

I just read about the <a href="/news_article3105.html">Spang pilot flying too low after 5 pm</a>. I may sound old, but guess what. We won the war there and if they don't like it we should pack up all our toys and leave. I know we need bases there but at what point in time do we give in? We rebuilt not only Germany but Japan too.

It's time they paid us to defend their homeland. Maybe I'm a Maverick, call me John McCain, but if we are going to defend the world, lets us do it. Otherwise we can walk very softly, but look out for the very huge stick we will carry, thank Teddy for that line.

Purple

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Last edited by Michael_HHN on Oct 29, 2008 - 07:00 PM; edited 1 time in total

Sorry Purplehaze, but you always start this political discussion! What has this incident to do with WWII?
I don't want to start another boring discussion but the fact is : The pilot broke the rules!!!
What happens if you break rules and laws? Dont you get punished?
This was unnecessary dangerous flying!
If all info's you have is from f-16.net you should be "updated" and we can talk on.
But I think - a briefing to all pilots at SP and this want happen again. TRA's and Ranges are just around the corner....

Purplehaze wrote:

I just read about the Spang pilot flying too low after 5 pm. I may sound old, but guess what. We won the war there and if they don't like it we should pack up all our toys and leave. I know we need bases there but at what point in time do we give in? We rebuilt not only Germany but Japan too.

It's time they paid us to defend their homeland. Maybe I'm a Maverick, call me John McCain, but if we are going to defend the world, lets us do it. Otherwise we can walk very softly, but look out for the very huge stick we will carry, thank Teddy for that line.

Purple

JEEZZZ what a bunch of "BRAVO SIERRA" !! Please do not try to state that the WWII victory was won solely by the USA. Maybe that's what's being told in schools in the US but you should try to read some books!! What's even more important is that somebody who busts the rules should pay the penalty! It even happens in the good old US of A when somebody tries to do a barrel roll overflying a sports event (not too long ago).

If you think that illegal low flying is a way to defend the world, then we certainly do not want you to defend it! One of the key things of flying fighter aircraft is that you obey the rules because if you don't, somebody on the ground or in the air (maybe even yourself) could die!!

If you wanna have fun busting rules then fly your own private jet but do not try to do it with taxpayers money.

Bouli out.

Sorry Sir but here goes my reply,

1. I do not always start political discussion.
2. It was not dangerous flying. It was will within the stated guidelines of our standard rules but did not meet the German quiet hours. Read this again.

"Normally this altitude would have been well above the minimum of 304 meters (1,000 feet) AGL (above ground level) allowed in Germany without prior German Air Force approval, however, since the maneuvers occurred after 5 p.m., the flight occurred below the allowable minimums," U.S. Air Force officials said in a press release.

I spent 14 years at Spang, Bitburg, and Ramstein. I know that if you even pass gas after quiet hours someone is going to complain. He (pilot) may have been wrong, but I am sure it wasn't dangerous. Dangerous is what the Frecce Tricolori did at Ramstein in 88. I was there and almost killed.

Some of these rules are fair and some are not. You ask why I refered to WW2, because we are still there today. If it wasn't for that we never would have been there in the first place. I have many very good friends in and from Germany.

Purple

Hey, different country - different rules! You have to accept this. If I would go to US, do stupid stuff and say "Well, i dont care about your rules" I would be arrested within seconds! Dont ya think? Please read BouliNDSO post again.
Btw, please remember Oberkail 2 years ago...not again. It's only 6 miles away, maybe people are still scared.

I don't want to see this thread turn into a Germany v. USA Urinary Olympics, but I'm afraid that's where this one is headed. I will, however add my Two Cents

and hope that cooler heads prevail.

I must say that I'm not very surprised that something like this would happen. IIRC, each base in Germany has "quiet hours". There have been a couple of times that Ramstein needed us on the deck, and shut down within 15 minutes, or else we'd have to divert. However, was a high speed approved upon request? No way.

Things like this can be a problem when you're dealing with one of the busiest air traffic corridors in the world, per capita, but within the confines of a country roughly the size of Texas. I don't know how many on this site have flown in Germany lately, but sometimes it can be the Wild West up there.

Case in point: the last time I was on approach to Ramstein, we had started our descent, and we were passed on the left side by an outbound Lufthansa 747. Our TCAS was showing a yellow indication, and even Bitchin' Betty started talking. I still swear that, had my window been able to open, I could've emptied my 9mm on the 747 and hit every Foxtrottin' shot. That's literally how close we were! Shocked

I'm not saying that was anyone's fault. Again, I'm just saying that it's very busy up there, and you're dealing with a very concentrated air traffic area. You need to be on your toes, and keep your head on a swivel.

The pilot in question may have been flying a low level, which is completely legal and normal, but flew too low over the wrong area, or, could have been running late coming back from a "2nd Go" sortie. It happens.

If anything, STAN/EVAL will take him into the "back room", slap him on the hand, and it will be what we call an "On the Spot Q3". In layman's terms, "Ok, here's what you did wrong. You know what not to do next time, but next sortie, we'll fly you with an IP, just to make sure you're good to go"...That is, if they even want to do that. They may just slap him on the hand, and after a debrief, all will be forgiven.

Rest assured, this will be a temporary thing for this pilot. It happens. It has happened. It will happen again. He's not losing his wings, and they won't take his birthday away, or anything stupid like that, so let's not guillotine the guy.

Good. That's finished. Now everybody play nice!

It is certainly not a Germany vs USA contest, i want to make clear that i am absolutely not from Germany! Evil or Very Mad

Although they have some good beer and bratwurst Guiness

Thanks TC......I was never mad, hell I love Germany. I'm one of the few folks still around when there F-104's flew out of Luke. All I was trying to say is lets not hang him until after the trial. I'll sit back and listen.

Purple

Well, I live in Germany and have to say.. I'm quite sick of the 16's and A-10's using the valley we live in as some playground.

I also feel this BS attitude taken with pilots that break rules needs to stop. They need to be held to higher standards.

Imagine this on the flightline???? Oh whats that johnny crew chief? You broke the rules and and the jet flew anyways! thats a Q3 buddy.. now don't do it again!

Ha try Art. this and Art. that.

My question was how did they know he was too low? Did some one
look out their window and see the top of the tail going by? Or
is it time for "buzz numbers" to be put back on the jets like in
the late 50's, early 60's. Smile

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

They more than likely checked his tapes. Bottom line though, if we break the rules in any country then we sit for a week.

ViperKeeper wrote:

Oh whats that johnny crew chief? You broke the rules and and the jet flew anyways! thats a Q3 buddy.. now don't do it again!

Actually, that would be a little closer to a Court Martial. Laughing

"Q codes" are reserved for aviators, and most specifically, AMC (cargo and tanker) aircrews (what I happen to be) utilize these during evaluations (i.e., check rides). Forgive me, but I can't remember what nomenclature the other MAJCOMs refer to aircrew qualification codes by.

However, here's how they work for us:

Q-1: Fully qualified

Q-2: Qualified, but downgraded on a particular procedure. Can be remedied by a debrief.

Q-3: Unqualified. A major procedural violation, or safety issue was performed, which either may have, or did result in damage or potential for damage to the aircraft or personnel.

These sometimes can be remedied with a debrief (aka, an "On the spot" Q3), which basically means, you are unqualified until an evaluator goes over what you did wrong, and then signs you off.

However, in major issues, such as damaging equipment, causing an injury, or a major procedural violation, the crewmember(s) in question will be grounded until they receive retraining, a flight with an instructor, and then a flight with an evaluator. After that, the crewmember is again cleared to fly.

What this pilot did, as SnakeHandler said, will cause the pilot to sit for a week, and again, may be remedied with a debrief by STAN/EVAL. It's not the end of the world for him, though.

Frankly, I think too many people on this site are blowing it way out of proportions. Of course, rules are rules, and he is being punished for it, but it was just landing late, and during quiet hours. Nobody was hurt or killed, and it's not like the citizens of Trier have never heard an airplane fly at night before, so let's not hang the guy, shall we?

Some people seriously need to grow up... Rolling Eyes

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

I have mixed feelings. Though I do have sympathies with the pilot and have some similar feelings as Purplehaze; I agree with the grounding. Let’s not forget Bud Holland/Czar 52/Fairchild B-52 mishap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU

While I do agree there are times that it is necessary to get down low and to take risks, there are times places and reasons for that. However to do it in an unauthorized manner or without an emergency warranting it; I find the behavior unacceptable. While there has been times and locations that the rules have been loosely enforced there also has been times when the rules were even more strict and harshly enforced. My father joined the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC) by the time he was retired it was the U.S. Air Force (USAF). To make it sound like there was no rules in the old days is not true. While there was generally less rules and often they weren’t enforced, sometimes they were enforced with an iron fist. My father said it was not uncommon to see pilots/brass doing dirty hard hot or cold work as punishment. He said one of the worst punishment details was cleaning the grease pits; my father said he didn’t realize how many grease pits an airbase had. There were grease pits/traps for the maintenance areas, kitchens, and lavatories. During World War II my father broke a flight rule as a pilot/brass and he not only was grounded he had to do punishment detail/work assignments. My father as a pilot/brass cleaned the grease pits in the hot southern summer sun.

I suspect nowadays most of that work is done by specialists that are probably civilian contractors in special gear using special equipment. All my father had was his uniform, government issue coveralls, shovel, bucket, and trowel.

He said after that he never deliberately or knowingly broke a rule without orders.

I think there was one time after that that he broke the rules but he was essentially ordered to do so. As an excuse to fly lower his flight instructor said he wanted to verify the navigation by identifying landmarks. So they follow a remote road until they saw a border road sign. The instructor instructed my father to fly lower so he could read the sign. After the first pass, the instructor claimed he couldn’t read the sign, my father told him the name of the town but the instructor insisted that my father fly lower so he could read better. My father said he flew so low and close that the sign was just a blur as they passed by.

I don’t think they were breaking any laws at the time, but my father’s instructor was instructing my father to break/bend the military rules. I think it was just an excuse to get some low level experience and the thrill.

---

While this might digress from the topic. I thought I might add another interesting incident my father had during flight training. My father was under instruction in an AT-6; the engine quit and he could not get a restart. My father was flying the plane when the engine quit; the instructor let my father do all of the emergency procedures and to the emergency landing himself. After the engine quit my father asked the instructor if he wanted to take it; the instructor suggested that it would be good experience for the student. So my father went through the emergency procedures and did a gear up dead stick landing in a freshly plowed cornfield. He said the plane wasn’t really damaged that bad, and that he and his instructor only had minor bruises from the shoulder harnesses.

Well, having now read the article, it does seem like what he was doing was pretty stupid. There have been pilots that have been killed putting on personal airshows for friends and family. Cases in point: The Reserve Viper Driver in Texas, who put on an airshow over the family farm, and the Eagle Driver in Alaska, who tried to pull into a max climb going transonic, with 3 drop tanks.

If it's something light, then it deserves a light punishment. If you were doing something blatantly dumb, then you deserve whatever you get. Again, rules are rules. They're there for a reason, and we have to obey them. However, as I've said before, let's not hang the guy until all of the facts are in.

ATFS_Crash wrote:

I suspect nowadays most of that work is done by specialists that are probably civilian contractors in special gear using special equipment.

I can't help but think of Cousin Eddie in Christmas Vacation, emptying his Winnebago holding tank into the storm sewer.

"$h!tter was full!" LMAO

tbarlow wrote:

My question was how did they know he was too low? Did some one look out their window and see the top of the tail going by? Smile

No, since he was doing this 5 times in a row people had time to get a camera and film the flights.

And, no contest here. I have many pilots from 52nd FW as friends, too.
Greetings
M!

Forum: F-16 News

Spangdahlem pilot grounded