Forum: Program and politics

(Source US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; dated Sept. 29, issued Sept. 30, 2008)

WASHINGTON --- On September 26, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Israel of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $15.2 billion.

The Government of Israel has requested a possible sale of an initial 25 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft with an option to purchase at a later date an additional 50 F-35 CTOL or Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) aircraft.

All aircraft will be configured with either the Pratt and Whitney F-135 engines or General Electric-Rolls Royce F-136 engines.

Other aircraft equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communication, Computers and Intelligence/ Communication, Navigational and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Flight Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; unique systems or sovereign requirements; reprogramming center, Hardware/Software In-the-Loop Laboratory Capability; External Fuel Tanks; and F-35 Performance Based Logistics.

Also includes: software development/ integration, flight test instrumentation, aircraft ferry and tanker support, support equipment, tools and test equipment, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $15.2 billion.

Israel’s strategic position makes it vital to the United States’ interests throughout the Middle East. Our policy has been to promote Middle East peace, support Israeli commitment to peace with other regional Arab countries, enhance regional stability, and promote Israeli readiness and self-sufficiency. It is vital to the U.S. national interest to assist Israel to develop and maintain a strong and ready self-defense capability. This proposed sale is consistent with those objectives.

Israel needs these aircraft to augment its present operational inventory and to enhance its air-to-air and air-to-ground self-defense capability. Israel will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces. The proposed sale will not affect the basic military balance in the region.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Israel involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical reviews/support, program management, and training over a period of 15 years. U.S. contractor representatives will be required in Israel to conduct Contractor Engineering Technical Services (CETS) and Autonomic Logistics and Global Support (ALGS) for after-aircraft delivery.

The prime contractors will be:
--Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas
--Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, Connecticut
--General Electric/Fighter Engine Team, Cincinnati, Ohio

There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _08-83.pdf

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Personally, I would be surprised to see countries like Japan to follow shortly.......

So $608 million per F-35A over the 15 yr technical review/support, management and training period?? Hmmm.. now we're talking numbers!

It's frequently heard and assumed that: 'F-35 is the modern day affordable fighter - @ only $50 million each!'... but when the rubber hits the road, well, the numbers here become interesting for review and more realistic?

Is it just me, or perhaps Israel could order another 150 F-16I for that money? 150 modernized F-16I, or 25 F-35... that is the question for a relevant debate, IMHO.

I'm not saying no to the F-35, just saying let's debate this thing and bring it out in the open and not be afraid to say no to the F-35 if it's not the best decision overall.

One more question to bring up regarding this notification is that the contractors taking part in the deal are both P&W and GE?? Not either or?? Will both get a cut, regardless of which engine is picked?? Or will the order be split with half birds being powered with each? Just a minor side note of course, but still interesting, for discussion..

God speed.

The stupidity is breathtaking. Read the announcement for crying out loud Geogen. Here are some key points:

Quote:

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $15.2 billion.

Other aircraft equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communication, Computers and Intelligence/ Communication, Navigational and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS);
Also includes: software development/ integration, flight test Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Flight Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; unique systems or sovereign requirements; reprogramming center, Hardware/Software In-the-Loop Laboratory Capability; External Fuel Tanks; and F-35 Performance Based Logistics. [/b][/u]instrumentation, aircraft ferry and tanker support[/u][/b], support equipment, tools and test equipment, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support.

In other words it's up to 15 billion IF 75 aircraft are procured and that take into account 50 of them would be more expensive B models. The deal also includes lifecycle support, training and ancillary equipment. The program average flyway cost for the A remains (by the CBO) around 83 million in then year (2040 I believe) dollars. Further it is a fact that LM has offered the F-35A for export at around 59 million in current dollars if there is a comittment for around 375 units.

Quote:

One more question to bring up regarding this notification is that the contractors taking part in the deal are both P&W and GE?? Not either or??

Whatever are you talking about? They simply have not comitted to either engine yet. That does not mean that they will use both.

Do a bit of research, it's all out there.

Thumper,

Sorry, I'm not up to date on the supposed 75 unit sale potential and that total sale being part of this potential $15.2 billion purchase. I stand corrected if it's the case and would hope it to be the case.

I guess I was basing my quick reply to this following statement in the report (and assuming it was part of the 25 unit proposal only):

(Also includes: software development/ integration, flight test instrumentation, aircraft ferry and tanker support, support equipment, tools and test equipment, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. "THE ESTIMATED COST IS $15.2
BILLION.")

The above paragraph therefore was incomplete and confusing in it's ambiguity given the 25 aircraft component of the story. That's all.

I was assuming there was some principle significant costs involved with with a full, modern, actual F-35 contract, including indeed the software development (perhaps $1-2 billion alone right there?), spares (including spare engines, personnel services (over 15 yrs)... and the potential biggie, imo 'RELATED ELEMENTS OF LOGISTICS AND SUPPORT' (this could mean anything including special shelters and logistic/support building infrastructure??).

In short, I jumped the gun if this figure is truly calculating a max potential deal for 75 a/c and full lifecycle as suggested.

However, the total costs involved, including remaining R&D, integration, services and 'logistical elements' will likely push the F-35s actual program cost to a more relevant figure than the CBO flyaway cost currently estimated. (not saying I don't accept the full costs or the program's success, just that we should be open with them and calculate the full extent).

When it comes to the cost of the F-35, Norway was given a binding offer by Tom Burbage and Lockheed Martin in april of this year. 48 F-35's for LESS than 20 billion Norwegian kroners, about 4 billion dollars. This leads to a unit price of about 83.3 million dollars. Here's the newspaper article in Norwegian: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/04/28/533852.html

jacarlsen wrote:

When it comes to the cost of the F-35, Norway was given a binding offer by Tom Burbage and Lockheed Martin in april of this year. 48 F-35's for LESS than 20 billion Norwegian kroners, about 4 billion dollars. This leads to a unit price of about 83.3 million dollars. Here's the newspaper article in Norwegian: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/04/28/533852.html

jaCarlson,

I recall hearing about that proposed price for Norway. Sounds like a good deal. I guess I'm confused though, in that is this price of 20 billion Kroners the only one made public? Does this include the full-package fighter sale price (not sure of the exact terminology), including training, spares, tools, test equipment, et? Or in this fighter contest are the various contractors just floating their raw unit cost?

I'm just curious as to what the full contract price would be say between 48x Tranche 2 EF, NG Gripen and F-35?

p.s., I support a successful NG Gripen project (always have respected SAAB), and would appreciate if RNoAF ultimately selects that jet, but I would assess that Norway, depending on F-35 reliability/performance in such extreme weather conditions, would be in particular benefit with a LO fighter/interceptor/attack deterrence, given it's unique geography and substantial interactions, perhaps requiring the most capable asymmetrical conventional deterrence given size of country.

The 20 billion kroner prise tag is just the purchase. Updating, lifetime cost, training and such is not included. The other competitor to the Norwegian fighter replacement is the Gripen. The pricetag for the Gripen is about 23 billion Norwegian kroners for the same deal as F-35. http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/04/30/534028.html

SpudmanWP wrote:

(Source US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; dated Sept. 29, issued Sept. 30, 2008)

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

God damn Israel has one hell of a lobby! These people need to remove the BS visors and think much, much, more clearly.

jacarlsen wrote:

When it comes to the cost of the F-35, Norway was given a binding offer by Tom Burbage and Lockheed Martin in april of this year. 48 F-35's for LESS than 20 billion Norwegian kroners, about 4 billion dollars. This leads to a unit price of about 83.3 million dollars. Here's the newspaper article in Norwegian: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/04/28/533852.html

That is actually for 48 F-35s and the requested supporting equipment, training, logistics and everything else. The unit price of the F-35 as offered to Norway was $58.7 million in 2007 dollars.

I'll take dwight at his word.. thanks for clarification. So the question then would be, given 3 billion Kroners difference, whether to wait for a fly off between production models of both NG Gripen and F-35, or just to pull the trigger in the development and test phase? Tough call, imho.

God speed RNoAF.

[quote="geogen"]IThe norwegian military will submit it's evaluation of the two competitors by the end of 2008. The parlement will make their decision in spring 2009, just before the parlamentary election. The Sweds have conducted a serious pr-campaign against the F-35, even getting an 103 year old political veteran to call the F-35 nothing but a bomber. I hope the military report can set everybody straight. F-35's for everybody!!! (almost)

Forum: Program and politics

Israel officially requests F-35