Forum: Civil and General Aviation

This incident could have major implications for all commercial aircraft, ties very closely to the MAS incident a couple of years ago where the aircraft computers declared an overspeed and a stall at the same time. Also a possible connection to the 767 lost by EgyptAir.

http://www.flightglobal.com

Pictures are on the Flight Global website

From Flight Magazine

BA 777 crash co-pilot describes sudden power loss
By David Learmount

The British Airways (BA) first officer who was the pilot flying the Boeing 777-200 when its engines failed to respond to power demands on final approach to London Heathrow airport says he immediately judged there was a serious risk of disaster. Senior first officer John Coward is quoted in an interview with the UK Sunday Mirror newspaper as saying: “Suddenly there was nothing from any of the engines and the aeroplane had started to glide.”

Coward’s words confirm the UK Air Accident Investigation Branch’s (AAIB) assessment of the flight data recorder (FDR) download which showed that, at 600ft on final approach to London Heathrow’s runway 27L, and 3km (2nm) to touchdown the engines failed first to respond to demands for a power increase from the autothrottle and then from the crew manually advancing the power levers.

The first officer was forced to land the aircraft – inbound from Beijing, China soon after midday on 17 January – just inside Heathrow’s perimeter fence on grass some 400m short of the runway threshold. On touchdown the left main gear was thrust up through the wing root and the right was sheared off by resistance from the soft ground. The Sunday Mirror paraphrased Coward as saying he "used the wing flaps to supply enough lift to clear the perimeter fence", and quotes him saying: “I didn’t think we’d clear the fence at first. As we landed I braced myself for an enormous thud, but there was a series of thuds as it bounced along the grass. Eventually it shuddered to a halt. While I was trying to stop the aircraft I struggled to keep it in a straight line.” Coward described the silence that followed as “eerie”, explaining: “There was no sound at all. No sound from either of the engines, no sound from behind.” Then, he said, he began to hear the “commotion” as the cabin crew began evacuating the passengers. All on board survived. Among the 136 passengers, 13 cabin crew and three pilots, there were only three injuries.

In the early morning of 20 January the investigators were preparing to have the aircraft’s wreckage removed from its position just on the pre-threshold tarmac of runway 27L into one of BA’s hangars for further investigation by the AAIB, Boeing, and the US National Transportation Safety Board which has sent staff to assist with the probe. The cockpit voice recorder, FDR and the aircraft’s engineering diagnostic computer the digital quick access recorder are all at the AAIB’s headquarters at Farnborough where initial downloads of data have taken place.

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Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

At least it didn’t crash and burn; hopefully there will be enough evidence survive to find the source of the problem. Was it a generic software or hardware failure?

Or is it more sinister? There have been some alarming cases of counterfeit parts showing up in the aircraft industry. There also has been an increase in fraudulent substandard repairs that approach the level of sabotage. IMAO

Quote:

Boeing 747-438 Emergency escape path lighting wiring incorrect repair. Ref 510004809 Emergency escape path lighting inoperative. Investigation found that the feeder cables had been cut (suspect during carpet laying) and had been incorrectly repaired using metal staples. Personnel/maintenance error. Incorrect repair. Investigation continuing.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=pvlPBr3j2qs

It will be interesting to see what the findings are.

I agree, the fact it was landed under those conditions is a miracle in itself.

Great Airmen-ship under extremely difficult circumstances (in my opinion) - I am sure this will be investigated with a fine tooth comb (as it should be)....all in all, a very lucky outcome for all involved.

I would check to see what happened while in China too, leave no stone unturned (which I know will take place) but Damn....Hell'va day for the crew and passengers...Wonderful success story (in a way).

Sounds almost like fuel starvation......

The Telegraph wrote:

An unnamed worker at Heathrow said the pilot of the BA flight, which was carrying 136 passengers, deserved "a medal as big as a frying pan".

The worker, who spoke to the pilot shortly after the dramatic landing, said: "He told me the aircraft shut down and lost power.

Seems electronic to me

Airliner's engines appeared to fail
Experts probe Heathrow plane's crash landing

Could be many things, for sure, if it was an electrical issue, it would have contributed to fuel starvation since most pumps in commercial aircraft (least I think they) are electric (to my knowledge) but as stated, only two of engines did not respond.

In any event, I am surprised the rest of that fleet is still airborne (that surprises me), it costs money but safety should be first, maybe they should be grounded at this time. I would ground the fleet until the cause is identified. The flying public will understand plus British Airways has a great service reputation to maintain and uphold.

I know it might go in the hundreds of millions in lost revenue but to prevent a crash or recurrence of the other days events would be worth it to the stock holders too (least I would think so). Cant operate a fleet of aircraft the flying public loses faith in or develops problems hard to identify now can we?

In any event, I cant wait to hear the results of this investigation....

Didn’t the jet depart China?

Maybe Jet fuel should be added to the long list of boycotted items?

Yep. maybe there is something else going on there too. Maybe it sounds far fetched but I would not count the possibility out of something wrong on that end too.

I agree, it is worth investigating and I am sure it will be...who knows, damn country...

Meathook wrote:

Could be many things, for sure, if it was an electrical issue, it would have contributed to fuel starvation since most pumps in commercial aircraft (least I think they) are electric (to my knowledge) but as stated, only two of engines did not respond.

In any event, I am surprised the rest of that fleet is still airborne (that surprises me), it costs money but safety should be first, maybe they should be grounded at this time. I would ground the fleet until the cause is identified. The flying public will understand plus British Airways has a great service reputation to maintain and uphold.

I know it might go in the hundreds of millions in lost revenue but to prevent a crash or recurrence of the other days events would be worth it to the stock holders too (least I would think so). Cant operate a fleet of aircraft the flying public loses faith in or develops problems hard to identify now can we?

In any event, I cant wait to hear the results of this investigation....

Hate to say it but the 777 only has two engines. I have not worked the 777 for about three years but I understand that B.A. have grounded their fleet for immediate checks such as common new software loads, black box repairs etc; as they clear these initial checks the fleet will return to service.

That said, the current favorite guesses are:

1. Electronic gremlin mayhem - airframe. The boxes on the engines are totally independent i.e. no cross talk.
2. Water in fuel leading to filter clogging and ice formation
3. Fuel starvation - unlikely
4. Bird ingestion, look at the pictures; one engine has thrown the fan blades indicating that it was under power on impact, the other appear not to have, all the fan blades are substantially intact.
5. Switchology, unlikely

The initial AIB report is due in 30 days.

There you go, I have not flown in one and did not know it only has two engines, no wonder it dropped like a rock. All that weight, trying to glide with very little if any altitude, amazing it fell where it did...thanks for the info

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/ ... report.cfm

Here is the text of the initial report:

AAIB Initial report:

Following an uneventful flight from Beijing, China, the aircraft was established on an ILS approach to Runway 27L at London Heathrow. Initially the approach progressed normally, with the Autopilot and Autothrottle engaged, until the aircraft was at a height of approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down. The aircraft then descended rapidly and struck the ground, some 1,000 ft short of the paved runway surface, just inside the airfield boundary fence. The aircraft stopped on the very beginning of the paved surface of Runway 27L. During the short ground roll the right main landing gear separated from the wing and the left main landing gear was pushed up through the wing root. A significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraft but there was no fire. An emergency evacuation via the slides was supervised by the cabin crew and all occupants left the aircraft, some receiving minor injuries.

The AAIB was notified of the accident within a few minutes and a team of Inspectors including engineers, pilots and a flight recorder specialist deployed to Heathrow. In accordance with the established international arrangements the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) of the USA, representing the State of Design and Manufacture of the aircraft, was informed of the event. The NTSB appointed an Accredited Representative to lead a team from the USA made up of investigators from the NTSB, the FAA and Boeing. A Boeing investigator already in the UK joined the investigation on the evening of the event, the remainder of the team arrived in the UK on Friday 18th January. Rolls-Royce, the engine manufacturer is also supporting the investigation, an investigator having joined the AAIB team.

Activity at the accident scene was coordinated with the Airport Fire and Rescue Service, the Police, the British Airports Authority and British Airways to ensure the recovery of all relevant evidence, to facilitate the removal of the aircraft and the reinstatement of airport operations.

The flight crew were interviewed on the evening of the event by an AAIB Operations Inspector and the Flight Data Recorder (FDR), Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Quick Access Recorder (QAR) were removed for replay. The CVR and FDR have been successfully downloaded at the AAIB laboratories at Farnborough and both records cover the critical final stages of the flight. The QAR was downloaded with the assistance of British Airways and the equipment manufacturer. All of the downloaded information is now the subject of detailed analysis.

Examination of the aircraft systems and engines is ongoing.

Initial indications from the interviews and Flight Recorder analyses show the flight and approach to have progressed normally until the aircraft was established on late finals for Runway 27L. At approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down, the Autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines but the engines did not respond. Following further demands for increased thrust from the Autothrottle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond. The aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft descended onto the grass short of the paved runway surface.

The investigation is now focussed on more detailed analysis of the Flight Recorder information, collecting further recorded information from various system modules and examining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operation.

Thanks....amazing they lived, if the aircraft had been higher and further away (what's the glide ratio for that aircraft and weight, due you know), it could have been a disaster for sure...

Last edited by LinkF16SimDude on Jan 22, 2008 - 12:54 AM; edited 1 time in total

From the sound of it, fuel starvation (AKA a flameout) can be ruled out. The FO said he had no throttle response from either engine in any mode including manual. That's way different than a flameout. Had either or both engines flamed out, the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) would have recorded the audible caution and warning alarms in the cockpit.

At 600 feet with all those flaps and slats deployed and with nothing but Idle power available, I surprised he milked as much range out of it as he did! Thumb

I don't know enough about the 777's Rolls-Royce FADEC controls to make an informed guess but it sounds like the FADEC was refusing commands from both the autothrottles and the throttle levers in the cockpit either because of a software/firmware fault or lack of linkage (a broken cable for instance).

Ever try to glide a rock with no forward momentum, I bet that is what it was like for this crew. (nose down trying to fight for some sort of stability and looking for lift)..as stated, amazing work to get her down in one piece...

The medals (or accolades when given) will not give way to the feat that was accomplished, the man upstairs was watching I bet, amazing story for sure.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

Rogue phone call may have caused Heathrow jet crash
http://www.newkerala.com/one.php?action=fullnews&id=15742

Did Wi-Fi interference cause Boeing 777 crash?
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/communications/soa/Did-Wi-Fi-interference-cause-Boeing-777-crash-/0,130061791,339285323,00.htm

I am fairly skeptical, but I think it is possible and worth some investigating.

Forum: Civil and General Aviation

British Airways Boeing 777 Heavy Landing