Forum: Air Power

I searched but could not find anything.

I've heard everything from old motors to START treaty reqs...

Anyone?

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The F-14 was the only plane that was ever equipped to carry the Phoenix. No Tomcats, no need for the AIM-54. I would imagine that the remaining AIM-54s would be chopped up so the wrong people couldn't get near them.

My theory is that after the Soviets collapsed, the over-the-horizon threat to the carriers from a Red strike force was negated. Phoenix was a big, bulky, pricey missile ($1 million per trigger pull) that just lost it's primary mission. And even though they couldn't reach out to 100+ miles like the Phoenix, the newer, advanced launch-n-leave missiles being fielded (earlier AMRAAM models) made the Phoenix obsolete.

For some odd reason, the Tomcats were never equipped to carry the Slammer. The AIM-54 actually required its own unique weapon system to operate, the AWG-9 radar, and was indeed very expensive to operate. For all that the Navy invested in the Phoenix weapon system, they never fired the AIM-54 in anger. All of the USN's AA kills with the Tomcat came with AIM-9s.

TC wrote:

For some odd reason, the Tomcats were never equipped to carry the Slammer. The AIM-54 actually required its own unique weapon system to operate, the AWG-9 radar, and was indeed very expensive to operate. For all that the Navy invested in the Phoenix weapon system, they never fired the AIM-54 in anger. All of the USN's AA kills with the Tomcat came with AIM-9s.

Did Phoenix have a passive seeker like Sparrow that required constant illumination, or did it have at least some autonomous terminal guidance like the Slammer? If the AWG-9 wasn't capable of the type of datalink needed for the Slammer, maybe the Navy handed off Fleet Defense to the Hornets and concentrated on re-equipping the Toms to drop iron? Just speculating.

Enthusiast Joined: May 21, 2005 - 04:12 PM Posts: 21

The Navy felt it had better anti-submarine weapons in the inventory.

Quote:

Did Phoenix have a passive seeker like Sparrow that required constant illumination, or did it have at least some autonomous terminal guidance like the Slammer?

It was the ultimate launch and leave weapon. Pilots said it was having their own little flying robot.

If you had Phoenix, you didn't need the Slammer.

I realize that the Tomcat was the only plane that could carry it. IIR though, the missile was retired 3 years before teh plane. I know that the newest of the AIM-54's were built in the early 90's, so I was just curious if it had to do with a "shelf life" of sorts.

I found somewhere on the net where the USN fired 17(!) of them as a last hurrah into a patch of the IO. Thats an expensive fare thee well party.

The Phoenix was retired the year before the Tomcat, and yes, missiles do have a shelf life. This is one of the purposes behind the WSEP program. A number of missiles are taken from each production/maintenance/reproduction block(s) and tested to see if that block of missiles are still viable weapon systems. If they work correctly, then that block is still used. If not, then they are either taken down for maintenance, or face some other type of disposition. This might have been where the 17 launches of the Phoenix came from.

AJAX wrote:

I found somewhere on the net where the USN fired 17(!) of them as a last hurrah into a patch of the IO. That's an expensive fare thee well party.

USAF did that with a batch of Sparrows that were about to expire. Rather than destroying them, they let guys go shoot them at ITALD targets. Contrary to common belief, most fighter pilots today never get to fire a missile. By shooting off a batch, they get good training, get to see what a good launch looks like (so they would recognize a bad one if it happened in real life), and it is a basically free but very useful morale building tool. I mean, how cool is it to actually get to shoot something down. Doesn't happen often these days.

TC wrote:

For some odd reason, the Tomcats were never equipped to carry the Slammer. The AIM-54 actually required its own unique weapon system to operate, the AWG-9 radar, and was indeed very expensive to operate. For all that the Navy invested in the Phoenix weapon system, they never fired the AIM-54 in anger. All of the USN's AA kills with the Tomcat came with AIM-9s.

I thought some AIM-7s were used against some of those Libyan jets?

IIRC, at least one Tomcat did launch an AIM-7 on the second engagment (1989), but missed, and then fired an AIM-9, which hit the Libyan jet.

Enthusiast Joined: May 21, 2005 - 04:12 PM Posts: 21

TC wrote:

For all that the Navy invested in the Phoenix weapon system, they never fired the AIM-54 in anger.

They did, but they missed. Big shock there.

Regards,
Murph

TC wrote:

For some odd reason, the Tomcats were never equipped to carry the Slammer.

Money and duplication. The F-14 already had a launch and leave missile, the Phoenix Missile. The decision to retire the Tomcat had already been made so there was no need to spend the money to equip a fighter that will be retired shortly.
The F-14D was the first 4th generation fighter that the software for the Slammer was validated on.

TC wrote:

For all that the Navy invested in the Phoenix weapon system, they never fired the AIM-54 in anger. All of the USN's AA kills with the Tomcat came with AIM-9s.

True, but the Iranian AF did and had good success!

LinkF16SimDude wrote:

Did Phoenix have a passive seeker like Sparrow that required constant illumination

The Phoenix Missile had two modes of operation. The first was ARH and there is a data link to update the missile to where the target is. The second was passive detection or home on jam.

LinkF16SimDude wrote:

the Navy handed off Fleet Defense to the Hornets

Shortly after the Navy handed off the fleet defense mission to the Hornet, the Navy decided that it would no longer defend the fleet in the outer air defense zone. The Navy uses the Hornet to defend the middle and inner air defense zones.

LinkF16SimDude wrote:

the Navy handed off Fleet Defense to the Hornets and concentrated on re-equipping the Toms to drop iron?

The "Bombcat" got the role due to the fact it had greater range and could hit targets in Northern Afghanistan that were out of range for the Hornet. I do not know if the Hornet E/F can hit targets as deep at the Bombcat can with the same payload?

Person wrote:

I thought some AIM-7s were used against some of those Libyan jets?

TC wrote:

IIRC, at least one Tomcat did launch an AIM-7 on the second engagment (1989), but missed, and then fired an AIM-9, which hit the Libyan jet.

Actually the Jan. '89 incident, the lead F-14A fired two Sparrow Missiles which missed. After initiating a defensive split, the wingman reversed his course and fired a Sparrow Missile into the trailing MiG-23. By this time the lead F-14 had gotten in position behind the lead MiG-23 and fired a "-9L" into it.
URL
http://www.flight-level.com/dogfight/dogfight.html
http://www.ka8vit.com/sd/shootdown.htm

The Phoenix Missile was designed to kill bombers, later modified to deal with fighters. The Slammer from day one, was designed as a dogfight missile. That plus more modern technology made quite a difference.

Murph wrote:

TC wrote:

For all that the Navy invested in the Phoenix weapon system, they never fired the AIM-54 in anger.

They did, but they missed. Big shock there.

After PGW#1, a couple of instances where a Phoenix was fired at MiG-25's and missed. It was suspected the MiG had spoof jammed the Phoenix.

Adrian

Roscoe wrote:

AJAX wrote:

I found somewhere on the net where the USN fired 17(!) of them as a last hurrah into a patch of the IO. That's an expensive fare thee well party.

USAF did that with a batch of Sparrows that were about to expire. Rather than destroying them, they let guys go shoot them at ITALD targets. Contrary to common belief, most fighter pilots today never get to fire a missile. By shooting off a batch, they get good training, get to see what a good launch looks like (so they would recognize a bad one if it happened in real life), and it is a basically free but very useful morale building tool. I mean, how cool is it to actually get to shoot something down. Doesn't happen often these days.

Our boys here at the FANG did that same thing earlier this year, 19 AIM-7's, each loaded onto a different plane. 19 pilots getting some great training blasting those ITALD's out of the sky and into the Atlantic Ocean. Our hats were off to the Marines for launching the ITALD's for us from their Hornets.
If I can, I'll scan a copy of the article from our mag, The Eagle's Eye, and post it up. Very Happy

Forum: Air Power

AIM-54 Phoenix....why was it retired?