Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

JASSM Fails 4 out of 4



Search Search  Register Register  Private Messages Private Messages
guidelines Forum Guidelines
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Previous  1, 2, 3
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
Meathook
PostPosted: May 24, 2007 - 04:57 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 3K
Elite 3K


Joined: May 14, 2004 - 12:37 AM
Posts: 3321

Status: Offline
Not bad buddy, not bad at all, nice to hear some logic supporting our US defense contractors (having been both myself too as many here) and now controlling both CUMI and Classified issues (on behalf of the DoD) with Foreign Governments.

I can tell you many, many checks and balances, ITARS, US State Dept, US Trade Commission, Pentagon, not forgetting the US National Disclosure Policy Board (rules and regulations) exist at a very high and low level within our government including private enterprises (Foreign Interests too) all are looked at very closely (as they should) to control / protect US technology and defense weapons systems.

Most of you know "idesof" loves to stir the pot and can be quite insulting "pressing" our collective buttons, every issue he responds to has leaned towards anti-government, anti-US and anti (this and that)...well, darn near everything. If he really is an American citizen it would be a shame. He has no respect for the dreams and desires of this country and that of the free world, I think he hovers on this and many sites to just tick people off.

He is not worth the anger he tries and sometimes succeeds in bringing out in a few of us (me included). Take him for the jerk that he is and ignore him. He would complain if he was hung with a new rope Smile

Later guys...nice job Parrothead Salute That salute is for you buddy - well done and said.

Remember you don't gain success without failure, you learn from it and press forward...we never would have reached the Moon if we stopped at the first failure or loss of life.

_________________
More than likely have "been there and done that at some point", it sure keeps you young if done correctly
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Sponsor
New postPosted: May 21, 2013 - 4:11 PM Back to top
F-16.net Sponsor





  Send private message  
 
parrothead
PostPosted: May 24, 2007 - 06:57 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 3K
Elite 3K


Joined: May 11, 2004 - 12:04 AM
Posts: 3280

Status: Offline
Meathook,

Thanks for the salute - it is greatly appreciated as are the rest of the compliments from the contractors on the board Very Happy !

Thankfully, idesof is no longer an issue as he has been banned. I say we put him behind us like the memory of Boeing's entry into the JSF competition Wink .

Meathook wrote:
Remember you don't gain success without failure, you learn from it and press forward...we never would have reached the Moon if we stopped at the first failure or loss of life.


Very true.

_________________
No plane on Sunday, maybe be one come Monday...
www.parrotheadjeff.com
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
ATFS_Crash
PostPosted: May 25, 2007 - 05:35 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM
Posts: 760

psychmike wrote:
perhaps you could ask for clarification.


I did.

ATFS_Crash wrote:

What and who are you talking about? How about some elaboration and clarification?


You did respond but it still seems somewhat of a vague coy anti-corporation rant and an attack on LM, Boeing and pharmaceutical industry.

psychmike wrote:
The whole purpose of my posts was to offer an explanation about why some defense contractors could produce substandard programs or systems without resorting to attacking the competency and integrity of the individuals who work in those companies, as Idelsof was doing. I did this by suggesting that companies do not necessarily have as their aim the best interests of their customers or the country but simply their fiscal bottom line.


Well you definitely have a lot better class and a better head on your shoulder then Idelsof.

However despite your denial there does seem to be a subtle attack on the contractors.

To some extent when you attack a corporation you are also attacking the employees.

I think the employees share some of the responsibility for the actions of their employer, so to some extent when you blame a company, you're blaming the employees.

There's also another way that you're attacking the employees. By attacking a company, the company employs workers, so if your anti-corporation attacks hurt the company, the company could go under or move to another country. So by attacking a company you are indirectly attacking the employees.


psychmike wrote:
You state that companies are made of their employees but this is not necessarily so


To some extent I agree with you. Sometimes it does get muddy as far as the responsibility goes. Sometimes management can pull the wool over the eyes of the employees. Sometimes there is compartmentalization issues.

I'm not saying everyone at the company is responsible, however there should be figurative circuit breakers and monitoring procedures that prevent substandard/abusive/illegal behavior. It should be part of quality control and security measures to loosely monitor for illicit behavior.

Usually it should be obvious to someone else in the company, so to say it is just the corporation's fault is somewhat of a copout.

I think of someone sees some substandard behavior that their first response should be to work within the company system to rectify the situation. If that doesn't work you can vote with your feet or be a whistleblower. I generally don't like whistleblowers, but there are sometimes when it is necessary, like Frank Serpico.

Now I don't entirely blame people for not taking action (like I said it could jeopardize people's retirement, uproot their lives, and in Frank Serpico's case it seemed to indirectly get him shot in the face because he was left out on a limb figuratively). I think people should people should be cautious about jumping the gun.

However there are situations where people need to take action. As I mentioned before if more people stood up to Hitler/Nazism we might've been able to prevent a war and mass genocide.

There are also cases where an industry is indirectly responsible, and the labor force is directly responsible. As an example: Alaska Airlines Flight 261

The corporations/industry was partly responsible for the mishap by putting high-pressure on the workforce to get the job done ASAP, and possibly overlooking in proper techniques. The high-pressure encouraged technicians to cut corners. In this case the problem seemed to be systemic as it was largely a workforce policy to cut corners in an unsafe manner. Instead of properly lubricating the stabilizer jackscrew, I think they just put a little grease at each end and checked off the procedure.

It would be much like just putting grease on the outer wheel bearings while the bearings are on the car (instead of fully packing grease into both inner and outer bearings). The lubrication and inspection only covered what was easily accessible. As a result the inspection and the lubrication didn't occur where they were needed the most. As result the acme nut and the screw failed, so the elevator locked in flight, as a result an airliner crashed and everyone on board perished. It was systemic maintenance procedure dereliction that caused the crash. Within the employees it was more or less an open secret and policy to use improper procedure and falsify documents.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
elp
PostPosted: May 25, 2007 - 07:41 AM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3147

Lets not forget that well over 300 of these flying abortions made it to USAF operational unit WSA's. Ooops.

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
parrothead
PostPosted: May 25, 2007 - 09:32 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 3K
Elite 3K


Joined: May 11, 2004 - 12:04 AM
Posts: 3280

Status: Offline
I just hope that the information gathered from the failures will result in a fix for the rest of the missiles.

_________________
No plane on Sunday, maybe be one come Monday...
www.parrotheadjeff.com
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
lamoey
PostPosted: May 25, 2007 - 09:25 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: Apr 25, 2004 - 06:44 PM
Posts: 699
Location: 77006
Status: Offline
Perhaps back to some technical talk then...

Blaming GPS drop-outs for a miss sounds like an simplified explanation aimed at someone that only knows GPS from the use in the car between tall buildings in DC. I don't know the JASSM, but a good integration between GPS and an Inertial Navigation Unit (INU) should negate most if not all short term GPS drop-outs.

Anybody that knows GPS also knows that you can't trust it to remain stable if your antenna is moving fast with a high potential of shadows from terrain, flight profile and atmospheric conditions. Especially just a few seconds before impact, as that is where potential jamming would most likely occur as well. For that you need an INU to stay on the track, and if necessary other sensors to find the target.

_________________
Former Flight Control Technican - We keep'em flying
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Robust
PostPosted: May 25, 2007 - 10:39 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: Mar 17, 2004 - 09:23 PM
Posts: 64

Status: Offline
Why not buy SLAM-ER instead of JASSM? US Navy uses it. S. Korea and Turkey have already purchased some SLAM-ER for their air forces...It seems like SLAM-ER has some advantages over JASSM in terms of re-targeting(two-way datalink), man-in-the loop, ATA targeting...From opreational point of view, SLAM can be used against moving(including ships) or stationary targets, on the other hand JASSM is only good against stationary targets, no re-targeting or man in the loop capability...I see people saying what about range or heavy warhead...But SLAM Er has some 280km range compare to 350+km range of JASSM..do 70-80kms make a difference for USAF ? In terms of warhead, SLAM-Er uses 500pound titanium warhead that is good enough to demolish most of the targets.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Rocky_LC
PostPosted: Jul 01, 2007 - 10:54 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Aug 21, 2004 - 07:03 AM
Posts: 101

Status: Offline
An interesting article on some other options (from Defense Daily).....

Quote:
U.S. industry: Viable alternatives exist if Pentagon axes JASSM cruise missile
Michael Sirak, Defense Daily - 06/28/2007

Raytheon [RTN] could offer an air-launched variant of its Tomahawk cruise missile or a powered, extended-range version of its Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) if the Pentagon's top weapons buyer opts to terminate the Air Force's JASSM cruise missile, a senior company official said last week.

Further, Boeing [BA] could present variants of its Standoff Land Attack Missile-Expanded Response (SLAM-ER) to address capability gaps left by axing the JASSM, the head of the company's defense research and development, said during a conversation with Defense Daily at last week's Paris Air Show.

Yesterday afternoon, the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) hosted a review to discuss the future of the JASSM, which Lockheed Martin [LMT] builds. At press time on June 27, the results of the review were not known.
The stealthy JASSM, which stands for Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile, is in the crosshairs of the Pentagon's weapon buyers because of a spate of performance anomalies in recent flight tests. The test failures came right when OSD was preparing to certify to the Congress, per U.S. law, that the missile project warrants continuation despite significant growth in its overall projected cost, some of which is not related to the missile's performance.

Pentagon acquisition czar Kenneth Krieg has said he wants a comprehensive plan in place to improve the missile system's reliability before he will go to Congress and make the case for continuing the program (Defense Daily, June 7). The JASSM system has functioned successfully about 60 percent of the time in 64 flight tests to date.

The Air Force wants reliability rates of 75 percent. Lockheed Martin has said it is committed to working with the Air Force and OSD to resolve the performance issues (Defense Daily, June 19).

In the extreme case that Krieg does cancel the JASSM program, the Air Force would be in need of new missiles to fill the void. It has 600 JASSMs already in its inventory, but planned to buy about 4,300 more, both in baseline and extended-range configurations with ranges, respectively, of greater than 200 nautical miles and about 500 nautical miles.

For Raytheon, either an air-launched derivative of the Navy's Tomahawk Block IV cruise missile with a range of 1,000 nautical miles or a powered version of its JSOW glide weapon could come into play, said Fred Anding, the company's director of JSOW international programs. He has also been involved with the Tomahawk since 1975.

Already, the company has provided information on an air-launched Tomahawk at the request of the Navy office that oversees the Tomahawk program, Anding told Defense Daily last week during an interview at the Paris Air Show.

The Navy's Tomahawks are fitted with a booster for launch from submarines and surface ships to propel the missile until its engine starts, but the idea of an air-launched Tomahawk is not new, he said.

Indeed, during the missile's development in the mid 1970s, boosterless Tomahawks were launched from Navy A-6 Intruder attack planes in flight tests off the coast of Hawaii, he said. And during the competition for the Air Force's long-range, nuclear-armed cruise missile, which Boeing eventually won in 1980 with its AGM-86B Air Launched Cruise Missile, air-launched Tomahawk missiles flew 10 times from a B-52 bomber aircraft, he said.

In fact, Tomahawk missiles prior to the most recent Block IV model retained the lugs for carriage on aircraft, Anding said.

"But the shape of the missile, the length of the missile, the outer mold line, all that stayed the same as the ones that we air launched," he said. "If you wanted to air launch it now, you would have to put the lugs back on, get rid of the booster and you would be good to go" with some software changes.
The missile, with attributes like angled wings and a chine nose, has "good low-observable characteristics," he said.

The extended-range, powered JSOW, or JSOW-ER, is a company-funded concept that has already attracted international interest in places like Australia, Anding said. Raytheon conducted a static test of the powered system in December 2006 and is hoping to gain Pentagon or international sponsorship to continue developing the derivative, he said. With sponsorship, he said he thinks the ER variant could be available for combat in 2012, sooner if it is deemed a higher priority and receives additional funding support. [Recently House defense authorizers added $3 million to the Navy's budget in FY'08 to support testing of the JSOW-ER.]

With a projected reach of up to nearly 300 nautical miles, the JSOW-ER has more than four times the range of unpowered JSOWs, which can glide for up to nearly 70 nautical miles upon release from their host aircraft.

Anding said Raytheon actually flew a powered JSOW model in the mid 1990s when it competed in the U.K.'s Conventionally Armed Stand Off Missile competition in which MBDA's Storm Shadow cruise missile prevailed. The new powered model under development uses the same engine that Raytheon is using in the Miniature Air Launched Decoy that it is building for the Air Force and fits easily within the weapon since the unpowered JSOWs always had room in their back end for a propulsion system.

"From an aircraft integration perspective, there is no change in the mold lines," Anding said of the JSOW-ER. "The mass properties are maintained. The launch sequence is not changed...That reduces your integration risk."

JSOW-ER would be both a capable and affordable option, he said.

Indeed JSOWs carrying the Broach penetrating warhead can defeat targets protected by up to five feet of reinforced concrete, he said. This is maybe not as powerful as the JASSM in this regard, but still potent for many types of targets. Further, these Broach-carrying JSOWs have demonstrated an impressive circular error probable of only four feet in multiple flight tests to date, he said.

Raytheon estimates the cost of the JSOW-ER at between $350,000 and $400,000 in current year dollars, Anding said.

The company is already under contract with the Navy to add a datalink to the Broach-carrying JSOW model so that the weapon can attack maritime targets and eventually moving objects on land. This new feature is planned to be available for combat in FY '10, and could be part of the JSOW-ER, Anding said.

George Muellner, president of Advanced Systems within Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, said Boeing has SLAM-ER derivatives that it could offer the Air Force.

"We clearly have SLAM-ER versions that we would throw back into the fray," he said during an interview on June 19 in Paris, noting that the SLAM-ER lost out originally to the JASSM in 1998 in the Air Force's then-missile competition.
In terms of survivability, the SLAM-ER version that Boeing proposed back then, had "very similar characteristics" to JASSM, Muellner said.

To his knowledge, no one from the Pentagon has asked the company for information yet on missile options that could fill in for the JASSM now, he said. Nor has the company submitted any unsolicited proposal, he said. "We will wait for our customer to make the first move there," he said.

However, Boeing did tell the Air Force that it is prepared to assist Lockheed Martin in resolving the anomaly that the JASSM has been experiencing with its Global Positioning System-based navigation, Muellner said.

"We would be glad to do that," he said. "We have been fortunate.

We haven't seen those types of problems with what we have on [the Small Diameter Bomb] or, for that matter, [the Joint Direct Attack Munition].

But then again we have a different system, per se."
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Tintin
PostPosted: Jul 03, 2007 - 02:17 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: Sep 28, 2006 - 11:28 PM
Posts: 32

Status: Offline
I’ve not read the whole of this forum section but I thought people would be interested in this. I heard the other day that the European Storm Shadow contract was signed on the same day, in the same year as the JASSM contract. Storm Shadow is in service with something like 4 or 5 nations and (so the story goes) around 30 missiles were fired in operation Iraqi Freedom. Maybe the USAF should consider Storm Shadow as a risk free replacement programme? It’s got longer range than SLAM –ER too.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Rocky_LC
PostPosted: Jul 03, 2007 - 03:57 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Aug 21, 2004 - 07:03 AM
Posts: 101

Status: Offline
A "J-Series" weapon would be much easier to integrate onto the various US platforms than something like Storm Shadow. Weapon integration is a very expensive prospect.

In fact, JSOW is integrated to most of the platforms that carry JASSM.

I am not sure about SLAM-ER's interface.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Loomis
PostPosted: Jul 03, 2007 - 08:03 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: May 31, 2005 - 08:10 PM
Posts: 76

Status: Offline
The SLAM ER interface is, um, interesting. Much of the JDAM, JSOW, WCMD, JASSM (and even UAI) interfaces are common since they are based on a template developed after we had experience with 1760/1553 weapons. SLAM ER was developed as 1553 was coming into play, so the interface understandably deviates from that template. To be truthful, integrating SLAM ER onto the F-16 was a welcome change after doing several cookie-cutter integrations. We tried several new things that will hopefully bleed over into other weapon interface mechanizations.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
elp
PostPosted: Jul 16, 2007 - 01:05 AM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3147

DOD is going to try and fix the JASSM thing. So I hope it works. I was wrong before. We don't have 300 some of these. It is closer to 600. Shocked

I complained about JSOW long ago as being expensive. It is. However we now know through combat (AFAIK mostly USN shots) use that the thing can at least find the target pretty well. While the "truck" ( payload ) part of it can't carry a warhead the size of JASSM, I think JSOW-ER needs to be looked at and funded so as to give some great stand-off ability with internal carry for the F-35 when that comes on line.

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Safetystick
PostPosted: Jul 17, 2007 - 05:31 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: May 13, 2005 - 12:46 PM
Posts: 156
Location: Sussex, UK
Status: Offline
Storm Shadow has 30" Bale mechanical interfaces and a MIL-STD-1760 electrical interface. It would only require the same SMS and flight clearance programe as any other new weapon. It is certainly no harder to intergrate than a J-series weapon.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
ACMIguy
PostPosted: Jul 24, 2007 - 07:07 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: Jul 11, 2007 - 06:13 PM
Posts: 667

Status: Offline
Thanks PH many of us try and do all we can to help this country not hurt it!
As to the problem I know working with GPS is tricky at times. A sun spot or dark cloud can reek havoc on nav.
I know for a fact that I had good sat link one minute and the next it was gone.
So it may just be a fluke and not a real problem.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
parrothead
PostPosted: Jul 25, 2007 - 04:16 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 3K
Elite 3K


Joined: May 11, 2004 - 12:04 AM
Posts: 3280

Status: Offline
No problemo ACMIguy Smile .

I'll agree GPS can be an interesting animal at times - I go geocaching. All sorts of stuff can cause problems with it Wink .

_________________
No plane on Sunday, maybe be one come Monday...
www.parrotheadjeff.com
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic