USS Forrestal Mishap being used to smear McCain

Military aircraft accidents/mishaps.
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ATFS_Crash

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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 11:41

IMAO this is another example of campaign a fraud using smear tactics to try to smear a veteran for political or and financial gain. Dirty politics.

The claim.
008klm wrote:
Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4. 'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft.



So am I supposed to believe that John McCain deliberately caused a “wet start” as a joke on a loaded carrier during wartime, and the flame miraculously went a direction that you would not expect and went a distance that you would not expect, and that the flash fire triggered a Zuni rocket that you would not expect from a simple flash fire, that coincidentally it shot the Zuni rocket narrowly missing the aircraft that allegedly had the “wet start”.

1: I would think a Zuni rocket would resist a temporary or fireball from a wet start.

2: From what I recall the video evidence showed there was no “wet start”

3: I've heard a lot of rumors, and there has been a lot of conflicting information on this matter. However I thought the “wet start” rumors were just suspicions, that were quickly dismissed decades ago shortly after the mishap after analyzing the video evidence. I don't recall anyone from the investigation giving any credence to the “wet start” theory.

4: I thought the aircraft that fired the Zuni rocket was in the wrong direction and too far away to be affected McCain's alleged wet start.

Several people the past few days have tried to start this rumor. At first I didn't approve the comments and in haste I deleted them. However I did break down and approve one, so I could debunk, challenge and refute his claims.


I am not an expert on this mishap. I know very little information about it. Virtually everything I know about it is publicly available. I don't know that much about the Navy.


If I'm wrong on something, please let me know with criticism. If I'm right or you have more to add please do and feel free to figuratively beat up on this individual is posting at my YouTube video. Please try to remain civil and please try not to use vulgarities.

USS Forrestal Mishap July 29, 1967
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I



Another individual or alias that tried to post on my video has successfully posted on another video.

Here is his claim.

openyoureyesin2008 wrote:
134 sailors were killed on the USS Forrestal in 1967.

It is believed by many crewmen and investigators that John McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E to shake up the guy in the plane behind his A-4. 'Wet-starts' shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft.

In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' apparently 'cooked off' and launched the Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that touched off the explosions.


Here is the video he posted at.
POWs & MIAs UNITED AGAINST John McCain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTe7cuyx6J4

This is some of the dirtiest politics I have seen since the 70s.

There needs to be real campaign reform. There needs to be better laws that better prevent slander and defamation of character. The laws need to include political candidates. I think it is a form of campaign corruption that is destroying our government and our reputation.

I have mixed feelings about McCain. I think his war record is pretty good from what I have seen. He served as a Navy pilot, unfortunately was shot down, unfortunately like most he talked after being tortured. I don't really hold the fact that he talked against him, because he was a captive and he was being tortured, I suspect the amount he talked and what he talked about really didn't matter that much. I also feel almost anyone would talk if they are a captive and tortured enough.

The thing I have the most mixed feelings on is his politics. I really think he has a mixed record that is kind of poor. However he is one of the few candidates that has supported our troops, however I don't think it has been enough. I really don't like ANY of the current candidates. I feel all of the current candidates create a vacuum.
Last edited by ATFS_Crash on 08 Feb 2008, 21:08, edited 1 time in total.
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StolichnayaStrafer

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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 14:47

How could he have caused a Zuni from an F-4 to hit HIS A-4??? :x

Crappy campaigning from whomevers trying to lay that on him!!! :nono:
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Guysmiley

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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 16:15

Reminds me of the "Swift Boat Veterans for 'Truth'" back in the day. Politics in this country are getting really hateful.
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tbarlow

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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 21:15

John McCain was just sitting in his A4 getting ready to launch out when the accident happened. If you see the video of the fire, McCain gets out of his burning jet and when he starts running, he is only one step a head of the burning fuel. His crew chief was killed.

Also the Enterprise had the same thing happen to it.

While at Hahn in the 80's we were doing a Combat Quick Turn loading Mk82's. The crew chief's safety briefing was simple: Will anybody have any problem being 2000 feet in 45 seconds? We all shook our head no and went to loading...
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elp

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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 21:45

That is a terrible smear job of such a great Democrat like Senor Juan McCain. :lol:
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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 23:28

The "group's" name is interesting. POWs and MIA's United... I'm sure the families of the MIA's will find this especially distasteful. Does he presume to speak for those who have no voice?

It's just one more sign of the times.
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StolichnayaStrafer

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Unread post07 Feb 2008, 23:44

I suppose they think he was a sympathizer- gets shot down bombing a power plant in Hanoi, almost drowns in a lake upon parachuting and has broken legs and arms. I'm sure he was saying "hello comrades!" while the angry people were hauling him out of the water, welcoming him to the Hanoi Hilton.

I think they feel that there were no good soldiers in Vietnam- makes me sick. :|
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ATFS_Crash

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Unread post08 Feb 2008, 23:04

008klm wrote:Crashed 5 jets, plus was responsible for the Forrestal fire. Surviving crewmen and those who investigated the Forrestal fire case reported that McCain deliberately 'wet-started' his A-4E Skyhawk to shake up the guy in the F-4 Phantom behind his A-4. 'Wet-starts', done either deliberately (the starter motor switch allowed kerosene to pool in the engine and give a wet start) or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft. In McCain's case, the 'wet-start' 'cooked off' and launched the M34 Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that punctured the Skyhawk's fueltank, knocked the M-65 1000 lb bomb off it's 500 lb rated mount, and touched off the explosions and massive fire. The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration, along with 167 of his fellow Forrestal shipmates (including those who died later from wounds suffered). 'Wet starting' was a common practice among young 'hot-dog' pilots. McCain was quickly (they were still counting the Forrestal dead) transferred to the USS Oriskany (the only Forrestal crewman to be immediately transferred).
Description: XA4D-1 Skyhawk BuNo 137812 experiencing a wet start (note the pool of JP on the ground and the tongue of flame from the tailpipe).


Source.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index ... .msg180556

IMAO The individual is politically motivated, because he's ignoring the facts. It also seems pretty obvious that he is a “self appointed expert” that clearly doesn't know what he is talking about in a technical respect. He seems like some laymen that took some words out of context because of his own ignorance and delusional political agenda.

viper1234 wrote:POWs and MIA's United... I'm sure the families of the MIA's will find this especially distasteful. Does he presume to speak for those who have no voice?


I find their methodology counterproductive, dubious and very suspicious. It seems pretty obvious that there is a hidden agenda, and that many of them are politically motivated and don't really give a darn about POWs or MIAs.

I have mixed feelings about McCain's politics. However I find it very dubious that this organization and many people that seemingly to support it, are attacking and smearing an actual former POW (John McCain).

I think criticizing John McCain's politics is free game, however I think it is very dubious and slanderous to try to imply (start rumors) that John McCain in effect murdered his crewmen as part of a wild prank; when the evidence clearly shows otherwise. I think it is (morally) slanderous and defamatory.

I think it is disrespectful and somewhat slanderous to pilots/crews in general and defamatory to say it is common practice to “wet start” aircraft by “hot dog” pilots. The implication is that it is/was common practice to risk setting personnel and taxpayer property on fire as a childish prank.

To me this is a particularly scrupulous figurative political assassination attempt.

StolichnayaStrafer wrote:I think they feel that there were no good soldiers in Vietnam- makes me sick. :|


It reminds me of the Jane Fonda and John Kerry groupies; that used to hang around gates and do drugs and drink until serviceman arrived home from theater and then the vets would be pelted/assaulted with beer bottles and paper bags thrown by the hippies. The hippies and paper bags smelled like urine and feces. The hippies used to yell things like “baby killers” as well as every obscenity in the book.

Apparently the protesters didn't care that the vast majority of soldiers did their duty honorably.

I still can remember the smell of dope, alcohol, dirty hippies, urine and feces; and saw the attacks with my own eyes, heard them with my own ears, smelled the attacks in person; yet I'm assured by many current liberal protesters that it never happened.

It reminds me of the Holocaust deniers. Evidently the truth and facts don't matter, because their political agenda is driving them to rewrite and fabricate history.
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Unread post09 Feb 2008, 08:02

This sounds like crap to me. The last thing I read was a electrical fault in the armed F4 caused an unintentional launch from the F4? isnt that the "accepted" theory? how could a "wet start" ignite a rocket under the wing of another aircraft many meters (yards) away? Even if the A4 was pointed in the right direction, and the flame was big enough to reach the F4, its duration would not have been long enough to ignite anything less flammable than a cigarette. BS job, god damn politics...
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Unread post18 Mar 2008, 19:06

I was on flight deck the morning of the fire and i can tell you that the story is a bunch of crap.McCains skyhawk was on the port side facing outboard, nothing but sea behind him. the zunni came from a f4 phantom parked on the starboard, the saftey pins were removed,as was common practice before launch,and was change after the incident. an electrical malfunction triggered the firing control. alot of good people died ,and it seems a shame some jerk can make up a political story to stir the sad memories. thanks for letting me vent.
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Unread post19 Mar 2008, 05:57

DENWAY wrote:I was on flight deck the morning of the fire and i can tell you that the story is a bunch of crap.McCains skyhawk was on the port side facing outboard, nothing but sea behind him. the zunni came from a f4 phantom parked on the starboard, the saftey pins were removed,as was common practice before launch,and was change after the incident. an electrical malfunction triggered the firing control. alot of good people died ,and it seems a shame some jerk can make up a political story to stir the sad memories. thanks for letting me vent.


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Unread post19 Mar 2008, 06:59

This is one of the web sites dedicated to slandering McCain for the Forrestal mishap.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/fo ... ead=119707

Some additional sites dedicated to slandering McCain

http://christianparty.net/mccain.htm

Notice some of the language on this one “Jews” “Zionists” (sounds like some Nazis/Islamists)
http://judicial-inc.biz/82jjohn_mccain_ ... rresta.htm


DENWAY wrote:I was on flight deck the morning of the fire and i can tell you that the story is a bunch of crap.McCains skyhawk was on the port side facing outboard, nothing but sea behind him. the zunni came from a f4 phantom parked on the starboard, the saftey pins were removed,as was common practice before launch,and was change after the incident. an electrical malfunction triggered the firing control. alot of good people died ,and it seems a shame some jerk can make up a political story to stir the sad memories. thanks for letting me vent.


Thanks. I wasn't sure but that's how I remember it. I've never been in the Navy, I wasn't there, but I was fairly well briefed on the mishap. Though it was decades ago and my memory is fading. So you confirmed my vague memory on an important detail to debunk this story; the F-4 was on the opposite side of the deck. They disregard the report, because they assume there is some sort nutty cover-up. However the F-4 being on the other side of the carrier makes their theory impossible in combination with the video evidence.

In one of the videos at YouTube I seem to remember seeing a vague missile smoke trail from the other side of the deck, I think it was little more obvious in the higher resolution that I saw it a while back.

A while back I had someone ask if they could have a copy of the video. It was right after they started posting comments on my video that was smearing McCain. So I suspect one of these web sites was trying to get a copy so they can control it and manipulate it. They gave me some sad story saying it was for their father, unfortunately I am skeptical of that claim. I never did respond.



Unfortunately they relaxed some of the campaign laws so it is extremely difficult to sue for slander. IMAO it's a clear case of slander. One of my videos that they have linked on their site, I have noted and commented many times debunking their claims and asking them to support their claims. All they've given me is rhetoric and threats. I'm usually a pretty mellow person with the language, but in this case I have told them they should burn in hell for their slander. I would be nice if there was someone willing to pursue the slander legally that had the knowledge and the means.
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Unread post28 Mar 2008, 03:42

Ok . Heres what happened. John Mc Cain was in his A-4. He ran across the flight deck and jumped into a F-4 parked across the flight deck and fired a missile at his own plane and then ran across the flight deck and jumped back into his plane before the zuni hit him. ( pretty fast runner , huh ) This garbage just cracks me up. These idiots don't have a clue about what they are talking about. I do. I was a member of VF-11 Red Rippers and these nieve morons are an insult to me and anyone else there that day in Nam. I was on the flight deck July 29, 1967 and saw my squadrons F-4 fire the zuni and hit Sen. Mc Cain's A-4 and drop his centerline tank. Wet Start? Hard to cause a problem when your tailpipe is hanging over the flight deck pointing at the ocean. Amazing that the F-4 was all the the way over on the starboard side of the ship and the A-4 was staged on the port side and Sen. Mc Cain's exhaust caused the zuni to fire. He is is no more responsible for the fire than I am. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time like we all were. After the fire we returned to Norfolk and Va. Beach NAS Oceana and he volunterred to go to the USS Oriskany to finish out his tour instead of returning with us. Soon afer he was shot down and became a POW.

Remember the men of the Forrestal who died that day !
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Unread post28 Mar 2008, 15:08

He probably psychically caused the below deck fire on the USS Oriskany as well(remember that?) just to make room for his transfer too. :roll:

Slamming and smearing the names and reputations of good veterans really roasts my rump!!! :x
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Unread post16 Jun 2008, 16:31

rstaff wrote:Ok . Heres what happened. John Mc Cain was in his A-4. He ran across the flight deck and jumped into a F-4 parked across the flight deck and fired a missile at his own plane and then ran across the flight deck and jumped back into his plane before the zuni hit him. ( pretty fast runner , huh ) This garbage just cracks me up. These idiots don't have a clue about what they are talking about. I do. I was a member of VF-11 Red Rippers and these nieve morons are an insult to me and anyone else there that day in Nam. I was on the flight deck July 29, 1967 and saw my squadrons F-4 fire the zuni and hit Sen. Mc Cain's A-4 and drop his centerline tank. Wet Start? Hard to cause a problem when your tailpipe is hanging over the flight deck pointing at the ocean. Amazing that the F-4 was all the the way over on the starboard side of the ship and the A-4 was staged on the port side and Sen. Mc Cain's exhaust caused the zuni to fire. He is is no more responsible for the fire than I am. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time like we all were. After the fire we returned to Norfolk and Va. Beach NAS Oceana and he volunterred to go to the USS Oriskany to finish out his tour instead of returning with us. Soon afer he was shot down and became a POW.

Remember the men of the Forrestal who died that day !


There are many points about this post which are disputed by eyewitnesses and other known facts. One is that McCain wasn't transferred to the Oriskany until you went back to Norfolk, while many others say he was transferred right away. The reason he was transferred is that the crew knew what had happened but, just like on the USS Liberty, were threatened with imprisonment "or worse" if they ever spoke up. Please don't say this never happens in the US Navy, because we now have the entire surviving crew of the USS Liberty as witnesses that it DOES happen, and DID happen.

Your statement "You people who have never been on a carrier need to get a life, you have no idea what you are talking about" is based on pure ignorance and supposition. I flew jets before McCain flew jets and have some idea of how likely it is that my fellow WHITE pilots would have been given a second chance, much less five chances, to crash multi-million dollar airplanes--ZERO. I was also on the USS Enterprise and witnessed firsthand how badly it was damaged [the "news" could never present it correctly].

I also saw how those who questioned why such dangereous, obsolete bombs were allowed on BOTH the Enterprise and Forrestal were simply SHUT UP. Not only were the criminals responsible never punished, they were promoted, just like affirmative action general Colin Powell was *promoted* while the WHITE man he gave the illegal orders to, William Calley, was imprisoned.

With all these promotions swirling around, isn't it interesting that McCAin returned from being a POW as a Lt. Commander while many of his peers had been promoted to Captain, two ranks higher? What did they know then that we don't know now? He entered the Navy with the objective of becoming an admiral as his father and grandfather had been, and the reason he left is that this failure to be promoted on time meant he would never make admiral!

And now the jewsnews determines this loser is "qualified" to be "president"?

The statement "His tailpipe was hanging over the flight deck. There was no aircraft behind him" is disputed by the following POOR video [and I'm positive that the ones that really indict McCain can be found somewhere] which prove this not to be the case:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

At the very time that the flames erupted, McCain's .ss-end was pointed straight back, not "hanging over the flight deck".

If you WERE there, certainly you'd have KNOWN this?!
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