Need some "Have Glass" info...

Always wondered why the F-16 has a tailhook, or how big a bigmouth F-16's mouth really is ? Find it out here !
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AfterburnerDecalsScott

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 05:16

Put the guns away, it's nothing technical, I just need some clarification.

We are releasing 2 new sheets covering Spang jets and I'm trying to figure out how to refer to the finish part of the Have Glass mod. I need to differentiate which jets have the unique finish appearance... so I call it Have Glass finish, or paint or what? The only reason its even being mentioned is because of the way it looks on the jets, with the metallic sheen and the heavily weathered/faded appearance. What do I call it?

Thanks!

-Scott
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JoeSambor

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 13:41

How about a nice name like "spectrally selective coating"?

Best Regards,
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
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AfterburnerDecalsScott

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 15:19

LOL, is that what its called?
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J.J.

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 20:10

Just found in an F-35 article:

Major Vassilios A. Evangelidis, Hellenic Army Aviation, wrote:[...] On the F-35 several special materials are used, including Radar Absorbing Materials (RAM), Radar Absorbing Structure and Infrared (IR) Topcoat. Unlike the F-117, which was totally coated with 2,000 pounds of RAM, these materials are more selectively used on the JSF. Lockheed Martin developed paint-type RAM which is applied around the edges of doors and control surfaces. RAS is used on the body, wing and tail edges. For the application of this paint robots will be used, like the CASPER (Computer Aided Spray Paint Expelling Robot) system used for F-22 and the Have Glass II program used for painting 1,700 F-16s with RAM. Robots are essential because they can reach confined areas, as the inlet ducts, and can work without stepping on the aircraft.

These materials comprise ferromagnetic particles, embedded in a high-dielectric-constant polymer base. The dielectric material slows down the wave and the ferromagnetic particles absorb the energy. These coatings are also designed in a way that the small reflection from the front face of the absorber is cancelled by a residual reflection from the structure beneath it. This is not an easy procedure, and it makes RAM design much more tricky than most people believe.

JSF’s entire airframe is also painted with a camouflage topcoat that suppresses IR. [...]

Source: http://evangelidis.gr/embry/F35LO-ShortReport-HTML.htm


And so the term could be RAM coating???
Joachim Jacob
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elp

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 20:51

From the same source:



While maneuverable enough, the F-35 JSF is not designed to be a champion as a dogfighter. Wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratio, armament layout, and cockpit design point to this fact. JSF is a state-of-the-art stealth aircraft. It incorporates every known LO technology. The most probable way to detect it is by its weapons’ noise of impact. It is designed to be the most lethally invisible aircraft ever made.



It incorporates every known LO technology that can be safely exportable depending on the customer. Add to that it has to watch cost targets as "affordable" was it's original goal. The last two sentences in the quote above are, at this time unsupportable.
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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 21:11

So "RAM coating associated with the Have Glass modifications" sounds good? I just felt stupid saying "Have Glass" paint because that's not a good description I didn't think.
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J.J.

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 23:34

"RAM coating associated with the Have Glass modifications" sounds really good, Scott! But the remaining question is: Are these RAM coatings related to Have Glass or to Have Glass II?

According to some other online sources there are Have Glass and Have Glass II modifications.

International Defense Review (January 1, 2004) wrote:[...] US and European aircraft manufacturers have used specially developed materials to reduce the RCS of basically non-stealthy aircraft for many years. Notable examples include the Have Glass and Have Glass II modifications to the F-16. [...]

"Second-hand" source: http://www.fighter-planes.com/stealth2.htm


On November 24, 2003, on page two of our topic <a href="http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-262.html">Golden canopy</a> Pumpkin posted the following reply:

Pumpkin wrote:
So the gold coating would in effect reduce the Radar Cross Section - are there any data available by how much ?


Hi Stefaan, Habu2,

Well, I guess the data has gone public. Have Glass is the code name of the tinted canopy program. And this site says 15%:

danshistory.com wrote:Have Glass is the code name for a series of RCS reduction measures for the F-16 fighter. Its primary aspect is the addition of an indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy. This is reflective to radar frequencies, while it may seem odd, adding a radar reflective coating actually reduces the plane's visibility to radar. An ordinary canopy would let radar signals straight through where they would strike the many edges and corners inside and bounce back strongly to the source, the reflective layer dissipates these signals instead. Overall, Have Glass reduces an F-16's RCS (radar-cross section) by some 15 percent.


Pumpkin


On the same day, habu2 replied:

habu2 wrote:Pumpkin, the canopy treatment was only one of the changes made for Have Glass, there are many others. Anyone who published the entire list of Have Glass mods and/or quoted an exact figure for the reduction in RCS in a public forum would be getting a visit from the Men In Black. :shock:

Some of us on this site must walk a fine line between we post and what we know. Don't assume every question is innocent. Loose Lips Sink Sixteens. :)


On April 23, 2004, IDCrewDawg replied:

IDCrewDawg wrote:
JanHas wrote:I also thought that the gold layer was to protect the pilot from lasers damaging their eyes..? ?


I have seen the gold tinting since I have been in, that is 14 years now. I have worked these things since I learned what safety wire was. Slowly the canopys are not having the gold tint. It is more of a clear, or gray color. Even the aft trasnparency is comming in clear now. When I first joined I was told by my trainer that it was to keep their eyes from being hit by lasers. I doubted this, but that was the only explanation given. Comming back from CCIP modification with the new HAVE GLASS modifications done, the canopy is staying the same color. The HAVE GLASS you are refering to is talking about the paint, and a few other things. The gold tinting is a very thin almost plastic lining on the inside of the canopy, and if your not carefull you can tear this coating. Cleaning was with water only and only your hand, no rags or cleaners, this was per the TO that told us how to do it. That was also during the day's of canopy polishing which has for the most part gone to the wayside, it is still in the books but not gone. From how I have seen pilots treat the inside of the canopy (wearing watches rings) this is a lot of wear and tear on the inside coating for a situation that since the end of the cold war is no longer an issue.


By searching Google, unfortunately I can´t find any more related online stuff (including Lockheed Martin´s online version of "Code One Magazine"). And all of my archived books about "Stealth" are outdated.

At least in my eyes, it´s possible that Have Glass was originally related only to the canopy and Have Glass II to the RAM coating.

Anybody who can/will clear-up that? Without to meet the "Men In Black"? 8)
Joachim Jacob
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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 23:38

There are Have Glass mods that reduce the RCS of the jets that don't incorporate the RAM coating, (the side fuselage RAM panels for example) but I don't know if its Have Glass I or II, and for my purposes it isn't relevant, just the finish appearance and how to correctly refer to it.
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sferrin

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Unread post09 Dec 2007, 23:43

The stuff on the canopy is not "paint". It's a vapor deposted coating similar to sunglasses. (No the coating isn't the same the process is.)
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Unread post10 Dec 2007, 07:14

Salute!

Sferrin is on to something.

The "gold" coating was used on our helmet visors back in the 60's. It was supposed to help keep our eyes from "frying" from all the "nu-dets" light and radiation.

Later technology had layers that detected the "prompt" radiation "just in time" to frost up and keep us from going blind or wearing an eye patch so we'd have one good eye left. Scary stuff, huh?

************************

As far as RAM goes, our effort to develop the "Thumper Buster" has many aspects involving RAM and the deflection/absorption of microwave energy. Think "fuzz busters".

We intend to use the same technology in reverse!!

We detect the sampling frequency of the yute's thumper CD player, then narrow in and BLAST THE SUCKER!!!!

Seems the thumpers don't have great "emission control", so we can detect their outgoing signals, then tune our "buster", then beam about a thousand watts to the dude. I love it.

Unfortunately, some of the newer autos have paint that acts like RAM. So we now have to raise our output energy to a level that will cook a small person in about 5 seconds if that person is between us and the target "thumper" dude. No problem, really, as we have super engineers and I am sure we'll develop a Thumper Buster that meets the spec without inflicting massive collateral damage. Besides, that small person should not be jaywalking.

more as things develop,
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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Unread post10 Dec 2007, 09:55

So, here's what I came up with....sound Ok?

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sferrin

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Unread post10 Dec 2007, 15:08

"Distinct mettalic sheen". If you look at various F-22A pictures that paint seems to do weird things with light too. (No, I'm not talking about making it invisible but it DOES seem to pick up surrounding colors a bit better than normal paint). The Osprey seems to have it as well. Haven't seen any F-16s painted with that stuff yet.
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Unread post10 Dec 2007, 17:10

This is what it looks like on a viper

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vegasdave901

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Unread post31 Dec 2007, 11:12

Nobody's mentioned this on this thread or the other gold canopy thread, but I bet that when the gold started on the EA6B to keep it's radiation out , the Navy or someone else accidentally found out that it lowered the Prowlers R/C and then they applied that knowledge to the 117, 16, and 22!
BTW, when I was a teenager at an airshow, an EA6B pilot pointed out to me that there was no such gold protection from the rail down and that the Navy obviously cared about their brains but not their balls!
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Unread post02 Jan 2008, 21:59

By the way, 'HAVE GLASS' was the answer to the Carter administration for smiling and saying we had a 'STEALTH' product back before the B-1 made it to the air. I don't think it was the canopy, maybe Plessey had something to do with it.
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