1317 Vipers - how many in combat squadrons?

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talkitron

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Unread post07 Nov 2007, 11:04

The GAO Tactical Air Report from April 2007 says the USAF has 1317 F-16 air frames in operation. Of those, how many are in combat squadrons, either with the active, reserve, or national guard forces?

I imagine quite a number are for training, etc, but just how many?
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talkitron

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Unread post09 Nov 2007, 02:51

talkitron wrote:The GAO Tactical Air Report from April 2007 says the USAF has 1317 F-16 air frames in operation. Of those, how many are in combat squadrons, either with the active, reserve, or national guard forces?

I imagine quite a number are for training, etc, but just how many?


We seem to know the history of every individual F-16, but we don't know basic facts about the history of the fleet? javascript:emoticon(':o') Help me out!
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Meathook

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Unread post09 Nov 2007, 03:31

Or...no one wants to go into that arena....... good luck in your quest (I wont help).

Keep in mind, squadrons change aircraft all the time, what's the point of your little exercise anyway.

Each aircraft is considered a combat aircraft, end of story from me.

The amount of squadron numbers mean nothing, the point is the US has the largest fleet of F-16 fighters globally....there really is nothing else to add that is that important (not in my opinion).

New guy huh....hmmmm
More than likely have "been there and done that at some point", it sure keeps you young if done correctly
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Beagle79

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Unread post09 Nov 2007, 07:46

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=703416
http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?for ... tentId=220
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -intro.htm

This is the closest I can come to answering the bloody question….
Notice that some airframes are for research (e.g. NASA fleet), development (e.g. ED), tactics (WA/OT), training and even attrition replacement. Moreover, USAF is undergoing a process called base realignment & closure (BRAC) so it is indeed difficult to tell how many “squadrons” (each squadron can have 10-15 Falcons?) there are. Just as a side note: USAF has 10 Air Expeditionary Force units (each has 8+2 F16CJ/Block50) on rotation.

It helps to do bit of googling yourself :D

Welcome
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Siesta

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Unread post09 Nov 2007, 14:29

The active duty air force squadrons have 18 or 24 PAA (Primary Authorized Aircraft) assigned. Normally they have on hand three additional jets over the PAA number. Also two seat F-16Bs or Ds do not count in the PAA number and squadrons have two to three of them.

Right now BRAC as far as F-16 goes is about complete.

There are seven active F-16CJ squadrons...

14FS and 13FS at Misawa
55FS, 77FS, and 79FS at Shaw
22FS and 23FS at Spangdelham.

389FS at Mountain Home and 522FS at Cannon have been deactivated and their jets redistributed.

There are eight active F-16CG squadrons..

4FS, 34FS, 421FS at Hill
36FS at Osan
35FS and 80FS at Kunsan
510FS and 555FS at Aviano.
* Korean based F-16CGs are not assigned to AEFs.

18FS at Eielson and 524FS F-16CGs have been redistributed.

Right now there are two AEFs with no F-16CJs assigned.. the SC ANG Block 52 F-16CJs covers one of the AEFs. With two AEFs deployed or on call it is most likely one F-16CJ squadron may cover two AEFs.

The significant difference in the AEF cycles now compared to pre OIF is that F-16CJs now fly traditional strike missions and CAS unlike before with Southern and Northern Watch as dedicated SEAD aircraft.

You can get a good round number of active duty frontline F-16CJs and F-16CGs but guard and reserve and other squadrons...you on your own!
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Purplehaze

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Unread post09 Nov 2007, 15:49

Best answer is enough to do the job.
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Beagle79

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Unread post09 Nov 2007, 17:04

BRAVO :wink:
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talkitron

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Unread post10 Nov 2007, 07:12

Thanks a lot siesta!!!

You mentioned 15 active squadrons times 24 (say) fighters per squadron. That gives 15*24 = 360 fighters.

I ordered a book that has been advertised here on Air National Guard squadrons. It seems targeted towards modelers but I hope it is informative about organizational issues as well.
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jvantoor

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Unread post10 Nov 2007, 18:53

The number of 1317 seems a bit high to me.
In the on-line Scramble USAF database I have 1299 active F-16s.
We have to subtract 14 (21st FS Taiwan-aircraft), 14 (148th FS UAE-aircraft) and 13 (425th FS Singapore-aircraft).
This leaves 1258 active/flyable F-16 airframes in USAF service (not regarding the number of aircraft in maintenance).

Perhaps the number of 1317 also includes instructional airframes as used on several bases (eg. Sheppard, Hill)

Further you have to subtract a couple of training and test aircraft. A quick look gives the following:
162 56th FW Luke
61 162nd FW Tucson
20 182nd FS Lackland
15 53rd Wing Eglin
49 57th Wing nellis
31 412th TW Edwards

This leaves 919 combat coded aircraft. But that number is decreasing quickly as the first F-16Cs have arrived at AMARG.

Comments/corrections are welcome.


Greetings,

Jurgen van Toor
Dutch Aviation Society / Scramble
------------------------------------
USAF / US Army & Israel Editor
website: http://www.scramble.nl
e-mail: jurgen.van.toor@scramble.nl

Scramble magazine is now published in English. For more info and subscription details check out http://www.scramble.nl/english.htm
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talkitron

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Unread post11 Nov 2007, 21:49

According to

http://www.afa.org/magazine/may2007/0507structure.pdf

in May the active duty USAF had 724 F-16s (PAI of 636), the ANG had 522, and the Reserve had 69. This gives a total of 1315, very similar to the 1317 number the GAO reported.

However, with apparently 15 squadrons with a high of 24 planes per squadron (15*24=360) this still leaves 724-360 = 364 airframes in PAI that are not obviously attached to a squadron.

Jurgen says there are (if you sum his numbers) 338 F-16s used for training, including 162 for the 56 fighter wing (a training unit) alone. If you count two spares per squadron (30 planes) 338 + 30 is pretty close to 364. So I think the numbers add up:

15 squadrons with 24 regular fighters + 2 spares each = 390 fighters in squadrons
338 fighters used for training in the active duty force
591 in ANG and reserve units

So I guess the real question is why we have 338 fighters solely for training???
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Purplehaze

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Unread post12 Nov 2007, 01:09

Why do you care????? Those are also ready to kick anyone's butt that needs it. What is your reason for asking? Meat you are so right brother!!!!!
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Meathook

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Unread post12 Nov 2007, 01:54

Thanks but I don't know why some people are so thick, knowing each squadron and their assigned PAA can only be used for purposes I dare not to think about but so many fools just give that information away.

Sometimes, I'd love to shove the keyboards up their a$$, nobody seems to care what they give away or talk about these days.

This has got to be the worst place for people to be so careless and open to give away information that should not be shared.

Maybe one day, one if these ***** will get caught up in something they cant talk their way out of, then maybe they might understand why the caution should have been used.

A piece of information here and a piece of information there and the next thing you know, you are starting to see the bigger picture of Americas F-16 Defense Fleet. It really bothers me that people are so damn stupid when it comes to just giving this type of information away, they never learn, it really is no ones else's damn business by the USAF and the Defense Department.

I am amazed how foolish many on this site are...amazing isn't it Purple...not the sharpest tacks in the box are they!
More than likely have "been there and done that at some point", it sure keeps you young if done correctly
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talkitron

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Unread post13 Nov 2007, 06:19

Come on guys. All this info is public knowledge. I would worry more about Chinese spies in classified weapons programs than asking why we have 360 F-16s for training.
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Meathook

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Unread post14 Nov 2007, 00:12

If you get it and post it and it is was approved from USAF Public Affairs then I'll agree it is not big thing. But just because some putz posts it here and claims it is Public released Information...I don't bye it.

As you see here, far too many people use information that have not cleared through "PA" and swear it is releasable, it is not unless cleared by the USAF - not LM Aero but USAF - I know, I do this sh*t for a living so it is a big thing to me.
More than likely have "been there and done that at some point", it sure keeps you young if done correctly
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imapricklikeu

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Unread post28 Feb 2009, 04:25

Meathook wrote:Or...no one wants to go into that arena....... good luck in your quest (I wont help).

Keep in mind, squadrons change aircraft all the time, what's the point of your little exercise anyway.

Each aircraft is considered a combat aircraft, end of story from me.

The amount of squadron numbers mean nothing, the point is the US has the largest fleet of F-16 fighters globally....there really is nothing else to add that is that important (not in my opinion).

New guy huh....hmmmm


Another way of wording the question is: how many a$$holes are there in a squadron? But of course that is a stupid question, as some here have demonstrated so well, the answer is simply just as many as there are in a squadron, and just as many squadrons as there are in the air force.

A buddy of mine has another good one: How do you know if a fighter pilot is at a party? Answer: He'll tell you.

Nuf said -- it's plain to see some of you fit the bill to a T.
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