F-22A versus EF2000

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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Triggersmith

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Unread post31 Aug 2006, 17:52

I am new to this forum.

So hi to everyone.

I have been monitoring the comments of Dozerf22 in this avaition site; -

http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index. ... 292.0.html

Dozer is quite simply the best commentator on the F-22A I have ever read.

If there is anyone on this forum who is also a member of the fencecheck forum (requires subscription) could they please relay to Dozer my request for him to comment on any training sorties that he knows about that have taken place between the EF2000 Typhoon and the F-22A Raptor.

There are rumours that the Typhoon has won several WVR engagements and also that a Typhoon managed to detect a Raptor (carrying underwing droptanks) using its Captor radar at 80 miles. Was the Raptor advertising its position at the time, or was it fully stealthed up?

Otherwise I would really like Dozer to comment about any encounters between the two aircraft that he knows about.
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JCSVT

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Unread post31 Aug 2006, 21:27

He probably won't give any information out concerning things like that because it's probably still classified.
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skrip00

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Unread post01 Sep 2006, 01:07

I call BS on the GAO. They said the F-22A costs 360 mill right not.

But this guy picked one up last month for 106 mill. WHAT BULL! They better buy 250 more of these suckers and AMARC those F-15Cs.
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rapier01

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Unread post01 Sep 2006, 02:11

It all depends on how the costs are calculated...

If yu factor in R&D and then divide across 183 airframes you're get a figure close to 360 million- the way the GAO ect will calculate the numbers.

If you count just the airframe then 106 million, remember the engines are government furnished equipment....

133million if you count fly away with engines...

And what not. Remember the old saying there are lies, damn lies and statistics...
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skrip00

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Unread post01 Sep 2006, 03:41

BUT! If Lockheed was already paid the cost of R&D, then you cant spread the costs over all the airframes. Just the first aircraft.

Hence, it is a lie. The first F-22A costs $42 billion. All others costed roughly $120 million. Its called "sunk" costs anyway.
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rapier01

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Unread post01 Sep 2006, 03:51

I'm not saying we have to like it or that I disagree with you, its just how business is done in DC.... unfortunate but true.
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checksixx

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Unread post02 Sep 2006, 22:15

Don't get upset about it. Just remember this...anyone factoring in all the R&D is just plain wrong. Period. No other program has ever factored those things in. The critics started doing it to make the program look bad. There are MANY aircraft that cost more than a single F-22A...hell, even a C-17 costs more! So what if its curently the most expensive FIGHTER ever produced?? You think that advanced systems are going to go down in price?? What really irks me is that the meatheads in D.C. should be trying to explain why gas producers are generating RECORD profits, yet no one says well if thats the case then why am I paying so much for gas??

-Check
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Triggersmith

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Unread post06 Sep 2006, 11:08

It is now one week since Rapior01 passed on my request to Dozerf22 on the Fence Check forum for information about any training sorties that may have taken place in the US between Typhoon's and Raptor's. Since then others posed the same question to Dozerf22 over at Fence Check. Dozer responded twice. His first reply was perfectly candid if a little ambiguous; -

I honestly have no knowledge about the Raptor vs. Typhoon (anything I did know would probably be classified anyhow). I highly doubt it's made it to the US for testing vs. the F-22, that would be a very tense and political issue


If any encounters between the two aircraft had taken place, Dozerf22 would know about it. Dozer was then pressed about the political angle. His response was an emphatic denial that there had ever been any training sorties between the two aircraft; -


I didn't say they'd [Typhoon's] never been here - just not flying against a Raptor.


I think we have to take Dozer at his word and dismiss all these rumours of Typhoon's doing this or that against Raptors are idle speculation based on internet chatter.
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Scorpion82

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Unread post03 Jul 2012, 12:57

As it fits in here...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ut-373312/

As part of the Distant Frontier exercise, F-22s from the USAF's 525th Fighter Squadron faced off against the German fighters in visual-range basic fighter manoeuvres (BFM) combat training.


Impressions from the BFM F-22 vs Eurofighter:

German views
While Grune does not directly say that the Eurofighters emerged as the overall victors, he strongly implies it.

"I put out some whiskey. If they come back with some good performances, and if you know what the goal is from a BFM setup, and you achieve that, then I will pay you whiskey," he says. "And I paid quite a lot of whiskey."


Grune says that the Raptor's advantage lies in its stealth and ability to dominate air-to-air fights from beyond visual range. That is not disputed by USAF sources.

"Its unique capabilities are overwhelming from our first impressions in terms of modern air combat," Pfeiffer says. "But once you get to the merge, which is only a very small spectrum of air combat, in that area the Typhoon doesn't have to fear the F-22 in all aspects."

The Typhoons were stripped of their external fuel tanks and slicked off as much as possible before the encounter with the Raptors, says Grune, who adds that in that configuration, the Typhoon is an "animal".

Pfeiffer notes that the Eurofighter has better acceleration and can out-climb the F-22. ­Additionally, he says that the Raptor sinks when it is using its thrust vectoring capabilities, although one USAF source says he is skeptical of the German claims.

Overall, Grune says the two aircraft are closely matched in the visual range arena, but Pfeiffer says the Typhoon is the superior ­dogfighter.


American views
Lt Col Paul Moga, commander of the 525th Fighter Squadron. "Our recent BFM hops with the German air force Typhoons were outstanding...

One thing is for certain - Raptors and Typhoons are a lethal combination."


"It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM engagements that were fought," one Raptor pilot says.

USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.
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sferrin

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Unread post03 Jul 2012, 13:09

Triggersmith wrote:I am new to this forum.



I'd have never guessed. :roll: Just a word of advice. Starting X vs. Y threads is like hanging a neon sign around your neck saying, "I'm twelve years old and just discovered the internets." Most people who've been around a while have seen these exact same threads a hundred times already, and the same tired old arguements rehashed, and dominated chiefly by emotional nationalism. The horse is so dead it'd dried, cracked glue. Let it go. If you really want to know, go do some research.
"There I was. . ."
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Scorpion82

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Unread post03 Jul 2012, 13:27

Sferrin you realise that the opening post is 6 years old...?
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post04 Jul 2012, 02:45



I detect 2 ass-talkers in that "article".
I'm watching...
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em745

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Unread post04 Jul 2012, 03:53

The Typhoons were stripped of their external fuel tanks and slicked off as much as possible before the encounter with the Raptors

Is that so? :lol:

in that configuration, the Typhoon is an "animal".

So is pretty much every gen. 4/4.5 in existence. Problem is, no fighter goes into combat "slicked off as much as possible."

Let's see how much of an "animal" the Tiffy is with 8 missiles and 3x 1,000 L tanks. The F-22 will still be "slicked off" in combat garb.

Pfeiffer notes that the Eurofighter has better acceleration and can out-climb the F-22.

Really?

Dozer's takeoff story from a few years back (was posted on Fencecheck) let it slip that a combat-loaded F-22 can achieve ~61.5k ft./min. vertical (or Mach 0.99) after takeoff. Is this guy implying that a Tiffy (loaded as above) can break the sound barrier under similar circumstances? Somehow I find that extraordinarily hard to believe... Or are we still talking "slicked off as much as possible" here? :roll:
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shingen

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Unread post04 Jul 2012, 05:58

We don't have the Ps diagrams.

We don't know which engine undergoes less thrust lapse although my guess is the lower bypass higher T F119. So, looking at available TWR figures doesn't do much except put them in the same category.

The article states that TV allows the Raptor more AoA. I think the foreplane vs tail also factors in here.

The presence or absence of tanks is a big issue as well.

If you look at the history of these releases they're basically worthless. The (in)famous youtube F-15 vs India video is the best example. I read on an Indian forum that the Su-30's defeated the F-15's 1v1 something like 40-1, then the video says the F-15's cleaned up.

In this case what was the setup and what was the definition of "victory" that led to the purchase of whiskey by one party or another?

The Rafale vs F-22 was more interesting because the F-22 should utterly dominate but allegedly didn't, but then in reality did (maybe) even though it had enormous tanks on but the French claimed victory because the F-22 couldn't hold a gun track (supposedly).

Neither aircraft in question here is a dogfighter so squaring them off that way is interesting to say the least. What would be really interesting is what happens when an F-15 simulating a Su goes up against either BVR.
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Scorpion82

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Unread post04 Jul 2012, 10:37

Scorpion1alpha wrote:


I detect 2 a$$-talkers in that "article".


I assume those a$$ talker must be Pfeiffer and Grune, aren't they? Would you care to elaborate on why you think so?
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