F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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mixelflick

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Unread post16 Mar 2019, 14:07

f-16adf wrote:Granted there is no available Rafale performance manual out. And going by the F-16CJ -1. A load-out of 4 aams only gives it a DI of about 22. The 2 tip missiles are zero, and the 2 aim-9's + pylons are 22. If you look at the Mil and Max AB acceleration charts, and even the turn charts, a (and using some interpolation) DI of 22 is not going to impact a Block 50 F-16 all that much. I would expect the same for Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon. In fact, Rafale and EF may even have a smaller DI because of the fuselage mounted aams.



Even when the Block 50CJ (mid 1990's manual- years before HAF abridgment) use to mount wing tip aim-9's; DI on tips was still counted as zero.


F-16CJ drag index chart.jpg






One must also remember even the F-35 has to carry its Aim-9X's on external pylons. Anybody care to guess DI on those (since we don't have a manual)? Zero? 10-25?


I'll say 15-20. They're underwing as opposed to wingtip, and canted outward so.... going to be a lot more drag than wingtip I'd imagine. I'm more concerned with how they affect RCS. 2 more IR homing missiles is really going to help, especially if they're near BVR block 2's...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the F-35 can only (currently) carry 4 AMRAAM's internal. Believe they're fast tracking the six option, but those 2 9x's are big either way IMO. Anyone lucky enough to detect it is in for a NASTY surprise in the event they can merge and jump it.

It just takes away any supposed advantage Russia's/China's "supermaneuverable" Flankers theoretically have in the WVR arena..
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Mar 2019, 22:08

f-16adf wrote:Granted there is no available Rafale performance manual out. And going by the F-16CJ -1. A load-out of 4 aams only gives it a DI of about 22. The 2 tip missiles are zero, and the 2 aim-9's + pylons are 22. If you look at the Mil and Max AB acceleration charts, and even the turn charts, a (and using some interpolation) DI of 22 is not going to impact a Block 50 F-16 all that much. I would expect the same for Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon. In fact, Rafale and EF may even have a smaller DI because of the fuselage mounted aams.


Well, that DI of 0 (zero) with 2 wingtip mounted missiles is while having 2 Sidewinders on these stations.
But what's the DI of 2 wingtip mounted AMRAAMs on the F-16? (instead of Sidewinders)

So, I would say that a more close comparison in terms of DI against a Rafale with wingtip MICAs would be a F-16 with wingtip AMRAAMs and not Sidewinders.

Regarding the DI of the Rafale fuselage mounted missiles/MICAs against the Typhoon fuselage mounted missiles/AMRAAMs for example, I would say that in the case of the Rafale the DI of the fuselage mounted missiles which have a similar configuration as again and for example in the Hornet/Super Hornet would be higher than the DI of fuselage mounted missiles in the Typhoon since in the later case the fuselage mounted missiles are mounted in semi-recessed positions where "half" of the missiles are somehow hidden inside the aircraft's fuselage.

This is another reason why I doubt the Mach 1.4 Supercruise with 4xAAMs figure for the Rafale.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post18 Mar 2019, 01:19

Aim-120 on stations 1&9 have to same DI as the Aim-9, which is essentially O, the basic aircraft DI of 7/6.

This is getting a bit ridiculous, eyeballing drag of external stores. The drag of external stores is unique to each aircraft. Referring to the Rafale, without references, we can guess all day. Two points: four mica (2 wingtip, and two on fuselage mounts) isn’t the same as hanging pylons with missiles and compounding interference drag. And again I’m not sure what there is to doubt, Dassault has stated the supercruise with four missiles, pilots have stated it. Short of getting a backseat ride or hands on the flight manual, what standards of rigor need be applied?

The same questions about supercruise capability (duration, loadout, max achieveable speeds in different conditions) can be applied to all the claimed supercruisers with exception to the F-22. I may doubt the tactical relevance of supercruise for a couple of claimed supercruise capable aircraft, but as for the Rafale or Typhoon’s ability to supercruise with a relatively light load in the climate Europe? Don’t see any reason to question the manufacturer’s statements.
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Unread post18 Mar 2019, 05:37

Wingtip Aim-120's are DI of zero on F-16CJ.

Fuselage mounted Aim-120's on Super Hornet are a DI of 4. So 4*2=8 DI for 2 AMRAAMS on SH. It's the same for legacy Hornet.

Also, Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon do not suffer from trim drag while supersonic.
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Unread post18 Mar 2019, 16:24

fbw wrote: but as for the Rafale or Typhoon’s ability to supercruise with a relatively light load in the climate Europe? Don’t see any reason to question the manufacturer’s statements.


I see it the same way. But i have to say, i take "Spurts" statements very seriously, as an aerodynamic engineer
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Mar 2019, 17:02

f-16adf wrote:Wingtip Aim-120's are DI of zero on F-16CJ.



Ok, I stand corrected about the Wingtip Aim-120's on the F-16.

Thanks for the heads up.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 22:13

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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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