Raptor - invisible to AWACS?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

RoAF

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 632
  • Joined: 15 Feb 2006, 22:45
  • Location: Romania

Unread post05 Jun 2006, 20:04

OK, the Raptor is invisible to radar. But the AWACS (E-3) should be able too "see" it somehow, otherwise it couldn't guide them, and advise about targets, threats...
So how is this done - some kind of transponder, datalink from the F-22 providing real-time GPS data, something else..???
And now the really sensitive stuff 8) Could these signals be intercepted by the enemy and used to locate the Raptor?
"It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom" (William Wallace 1272-1305)
Offline

apags27

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 154
  • Joined: 02 May 2005, 23:47
  • Location: Shaw AFB

Unread post05 Jun 2006, 21:54

Could IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) be used for that?
Offline

Guysmiley

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1496
  • Joined: 26 May 2005, 19:39

Unread post05 Jun 2006, 22:54

Secure data link would be my guess.
Offline

Redtail115

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 67
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 19:12

Unread post05 Jun 2006, 23:38

Secure data link would be my guess.


Yup, the LINK 16 I believe................
"Its the man, not the machine."
Offline

TC

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 4004
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06

Unread post06 Jun 2006, 00:15

There is a way that AWACS and the Raptor can interact, just as with the Nighthawk and the B-2. Anything beyond that is classified.

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.
"He counted on America to be passive...He counted wrong." -- President Ronald Reagan
Offline

SPecialOpsWing75

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2006, 01:38

Unread post06 Jun 2006, 01:41

The way it works is that while the Raptor is comunicating with the satellite to accure targets the enmy is able to see the aircraft.

What they do is: they have another Raptor 20 or so miles behind the activates their radar and then that raptor transmits it to the raptor ahead that way the raptor ahead is not detected because it never used radar or anything.
Offline

cru

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 217
  • Joined: 17 Dec 2004, 08:25

Unread post06 Jun 2006, 05:49

OK, the Raptor is invisible to radar. But the AWACS (E-3) should be able too "see" it somehow, otherwise it couldn't guide them, and advise about targets, threats...

Not necessary. The AWACS broadcasts the location of ennemy targets (GPS coordonates), using the Link 16 (the Raptor has a receiver-only terminal in this moment). The Raptor terminal, as any other Link 16 terminal, presents the data, making the correction so the data are displayed as collected by the Raptor's own radar. Here is an example of Link 16 data feed to a fighter display: http://www.eis.na.baesystems.com/nes/products/nes_link_16_mids_lvt_terminal.htm

So, it is not necessary for AWAVCS operators to know where the raptor is.
Offline

snypa777

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1527
  • Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 02:00

Unread post06 Jun 2006, 10:34

AWACS- Airborne Warning And Control System, these guys act as battle space controllers, fighter controllers. I think it would be a necessity for an AWACS to know where the F-22s were as much as they need to know where any friendly fighters are as well as opposing aircraft!!!

Datalinks seem to be the right call. Datalinked radar data gathered from the Sentry`s radar to the F-22s to effectively extend the Raptors radar range without the Raptor ever using it`s own radar, the same for any number of fighters. TC said the AWACS interact with the F-22, how they do that is nobody`s business but the airforce!!!!

In my book, "interact" implies mutually advantageous communication so both AWACS and F-22s will know where each other are!

Satellite comms` is another way........
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Offline

checksixx

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1347
  • Joined: 20 Jul 2005, 04:28

Unread post08 Jun 2006, 15:13

RoAF wrote:OK, the Raptor is invisible to radar.


Sorry...I can't resist...Nothing currently flying is invisible to RADAR.

-Checksixx
Offline

TC

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 4004
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06

Unread post09 Jun 2006, 01:41

Awww DARN! :mad: You mean that Klingon Bird of Prey with cloaking isn't really out there? :P :lol:

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
"He counted on America to be passive...He counted wrong." -- President Ronald Reagan
Offline

avon1944

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 400
  • Joined: 24 Nov 2004, 02:03

Unread post09 Jun 2006, 02:51

checksixx wrote:Sorry...I can't resist...Nothing currently flying is invisible to RADAR

True but, the F-22 is extremely difficult to detect. So they plan their missions knowing where the F-22s are vulnerable to detection. Once that is done properly, for practical purposes it is invisible.

Adrian
Offline

Raptor_One

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1092
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2004, 08:19

Unread post09 Jun 2006, 08:14

Use some common sense here, people. If "radio silence" (including voice comms) is really necessary, you don't transmit any sort of data that could give away your positition or let the enemy know you are somewhere in the area. That means AWACS isn't even in the picture. If a flight of F-22s went on a deep strike mission they'd likely be well out of AWACS effective radar coverage for much of the time. If some F-22s were performing CAP or fighter sweeps or whatever, communication with each other and AWACS if necessary would trump surprise. If you're within range of AWACS, you're probably somewhat close to friendly territory. AWACS aren't going to go parading around hostile territory just to support fighters. So if you're the enemy force, you have to assume F-22s are somewhere in the area looking to shoot you down. It's probably unlikely that encrypted transmissions would be decrypted, but they might be detected. Could they be triangulated? I suppose if the conditions were right. But there are ways to get around that and to avoid giving yourself away with your transmissions.

Common sense dictates that if F-15 pilots can talk to AWACS controllers and not necessarily be pinpointed, an F-22 can use its datalink to talk to AWACS and not be pinpointed either. You may warn the enemy that you're in the general area with your discrete radio transmissions, but it's not like turning on a noise jammer or cranking your radar up to full power. The most an ememy fighter pilot might get is a report from ground controllers that enemy air activity is probable. They won't be giving him vectors to a target based on these suspicious transmissions, however.
Offline

checksixx

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1347
  • Joined: 20 Jul 2005, 04:28

Unread post09 Jun 2006, 14:15

Hmmm...lets see, the actual information is classified soo...I'm gonna disagree with the above statement. There is no problem with communicating with Raptor throughout the operational envelope. Would also love to hear how one would "triangulate" a position based on a two-way transmission, between two aircraft, traveling at a high speed and probably in different directions.
Offline

Guysmiley

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1496
  • Joined: 26 May 2005, 19:39

Unread post09 Jun 2006, 14:22

You can triangulate any radio signal given 2 (or ideally 3) antennas. However, you can't determine speed or direction of travel from an instant signal. This is one of the points of using burst transmission radio. You may know about where a radio call came from, but what good does that do you really? At best you know "something's out there".
Offline

Raptor_One

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1092
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2004, 08:19

Unread post09 Jun 2006, 14:56

checksixx wrote:Hmmm...lets see, the actual information is classified soo...I'm gonna disagree with the above statement. There is no problem with communicating with Raptor throughout the operational envelope. Would also love to hear how one would "triangulate" a position based on a two-way transmission, between two aircraft, traveling at a high speed and probably in different directions.


As Guysmiley stated, a radio transmission can be triangulated regardless of whether it's "two-way" or whatever. But as I eluded to and he stated more clearly, there are ways to get around giving away your position. If I had a degree in electrical engineering, I could explain myself better. Fortunately, I was only forced to take one electrical engineering course for my aerospace engineering B.S. degree. It was mostly circuit analysis/design stuff and didn't really get into RF communication theory. Most engineering knowledge and scientific/mathematical theory isn't classified. It's generally just the capabilities and limitations of military hardware that get classified. And these can usually be approximated to give a general idea of system/component performance.

But like I said, if you really don't want anyone to know you're there, you try to maintain radio silence unless it's absolutely necessary to break it. That would include using a datalink to transmit information to AWACS. If you've got AWACS supporting you though, complete surprise is probably not necessary. You're not going to be lighting yourself up like a flashlight by using a datalink so an F-22 is still going to remain stealthy and hard to detect by enemy fighters and ground/airborne radars.
Next

Return to General F-22A Raptor forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests