F-35 Aggressors!

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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Fox1

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Unread post12 May 2019, 19:13

It's about time we fielded a high end aggressor aircraft capable of simulating the most sophisticated threats the world can throw at us...or in this case, more sophisticated than any threat opposing nations can currently throw at us. Perhaps the renewed emphasis on great power competition will breath new life into the adversary program and dissimilar combat in general and bring things back to the level they were during the later Cold War years. It seems our dissimilar air combat training capability had been allowed to erode considerably over the past 20-30 years. I'm glad to see that trend being reversed. It would also be nice if we could get a few Eagles with AESA radar into the aggressor squadrons to help simulate the most sophisticated Flanker threats.
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Unread post12 May 2019, 20:02

Another history story with details known from previous posts: USAF to Activate ‘Stealth’ Aggressor Unit

11 May 2019 David Donald https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... essor-unit
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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rheonomic

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Unread post14 May 2019, 02:16

Gums wrote:I am pretty sure we could not have done a FLCS sfwe package for the VIper aggressors to dial in almost any plane we wanted. Back in the day we used the Cat III limiter to simulate a Flogger at subsonic speed. It prolly also presented the performance of many Gen III and early IV platforms.


It'd be interesting to field something like the variable stability system on VISTA to represent threat aircraft, but the envelope the VSS supports would probably be too limited.

Theoretically you could change the desired dynamics in the F-35 CLAW to represent another aircraft, but the cost and schedule to implement and validate that would by cost-prohibitive.
"You could do that, but it would be wrong."
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mixelflick

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Unread post14 May 2019, 12:44

Fox1 wrote:It's about time we fielded a high end aggressor aircraft capable of simulating the most sophisticated threats the world can throw at us...or in this case, more sophisticated than any threat opposing nations can currently throw at us. Perhaps the renewed emphasis on great power competition will breath new life into the adversary program and dissimilar combat in general and bring things back to the level they were during the later Cold War years. It seems our dissimilar air combat training capability had been allowed to erode considerably over the past 20-30 years. I'm glad to see that trend being reversed. It would also be nice if we could get a few Eagles with AESA radar into the aggressor squadrons to help simulate the most sophisticated Flanker threats.


Amen, x2!

Have been saying this for a long time. I can understand using lesser aircraft because they're cheaper and may represent 3rd world air force threats, but never understood why we didn't train to a higher level threat. It would seem to make sense - if you can defeat higher end threats, then you could certainly defeat lower ones. Seemed to me like we were doing the opposite.

I know F-15/16 aggressors can simulate late model Mig-29's and Flankers. I know we have both Mig-29's and Flankers too. But finally, we have something that'll more than adequately prepare us for the looming confrontation with Russia/China. It's good to see, and can't get here soon enough IMO.
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wrightwing

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Unread post14 May 2019, 21:05

mixelflick wrote:
Fox1 wrote:It's about time we fielded a high end aggressor aircraft capable of simulating the most sophisticated threats the world can throw at us...or in this case, more sophisticated than any threat opposing nations can currently throw at us. Perhaps the renewed emphasis on great power competition will breath new life into the adversary program and dissimilar combat in general and bring things back to the level they were during the later Cold War years. It seems our dissimilar air combat training capability had been allowed to erode considerably over the past 20-30 years. I'm glad to see that trend being reversed. It would also be nice if we could get a few Eagles with AESA radar into the aggressor squadrons to help simulate the most sophisticated Flanker threats.


Amen, x2!

Have been saying this for a long time. I can understand using lesser aircraft because they're cheaper and may represent 3rd world air force threats, but never understood why we didn't train to a higher level threat. It would seem to make sense - if you can defeat higher end threats, then you could certainly defeat lower ones. Seemed to me like we were doing the opposite.

I know F-15/16 aggressors can simulate late model Mig-29's and Flankers. I know we have both Mig-29's and Flankers too. But finally, we have something that'll more than adequately prepare us for the looming confrontation with Russia/China. It's good to see, and can't get here soon enough IMO.

Higher end 4th generation threats can still be simulated, using less expensive aircraft. Even if their organic systems don't replicate those of a threat, they can still have the same situational awareness via GCI/datalinks. We aren't training against 70s/80s level threats, in exercises. We still fly DACT between F-15/16/18/22/35s, as well as allied Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen/Flanker/Fulcrums, and even more elaborate training in simulators. You can rest assured that pilots aren't only training against kinematically inferior threats. Adding F-35s to the mix, will definitely enhance training, though. It gives our 4th generation pilots more experience in tactics against LO/high situational awareness threats.
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Unread post14 May 2019, 22:00

"... It gives our 4th generation pilots more experience in tactics against LO/high situational awareness threats." Surrender?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 May 2019, 22:13

Learn to use more passive measures to gain SA.
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Gums

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Unread post14 May 2019, 22:57

Salute!

How many here have ever flown against the actual "Aggressor" folks, or have been one of them?
Quick, for sure, and Snakehandler and 35-AoA and.....

The biggie from day one in the mid 70's was the really super GCI that the T-38 (and later the F-5) had to get them to us. They had super situation awareness and didn't need onboard radar except maybe the end game. Think Mig-21 and a few later Soviet planes. DIdn't get better in the 80's. So everybody was flying around with radar in STBY, heh heh, maybe in search mode.

I only got smoked once at Red Flag by F-5, and no RHAW indication My wingie didn't pick up the bandit until he hosed me. It was like North Vietnam.

The biggie with the F-35 is it can have great SA without an air defense system. And it's radar is LPI and it can get data from a wingie that is 20 miles away. Scary, huh?
+++++++++++++++++
Reason I asserted we could not have "dial a Mig" for our FLCS was that it was hardwired analog circuit boards. The digital FLCS a decade later or so would be easier to implement, but those computers would be very specialized ones and have some kinda switch to revert to basic Viper control laws in a heartbeat. Very expensive and too many sftwe modules to give you a bad day.

What Cat III did was limit roll rate and AoA. So we could appear to be something less than a real Viper, although we could still pull 9 gees if going fast enough.

Gums sends...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 May 2019, 00:58

Wonder if the Aggressor F-35's will get a New Camo???
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Fox1

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Unread post15 May 2019, 06:22

Corsair1963 wrote:Wonder if the Aggressor F-35's will get a New Camo???


I just hope that they don't end up with a botched color matching job such as this abomination....

Image

Not even the damn Soviets would have used a scheme so ugly as the "rotten banana". :lol:

And as bad as that one was, I seem to recall one that was even worse back in the 1980s. I can't remember if it was an Air Force or Navy bird, but the colors were so lively that it made the aircraft look about as inconspicuous as a deer hunter in his bright hunter orange vest and hat.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 May 2019, 08:24

I doubt the F-35 Aggressors would adopt a loud Russian Type Camo! My guess is something low key like the current J-20. :wink:


J20CX.jpg
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mixelflick

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Unread post15 May 2019, 14:11

Corsair1963 wrote:I doubt the F-35 Aggressors would adopt a loud Russian Type Camo! My guess is something low key like the current J-20. :wink:


The attachment J20CX.jpg is no longer available


This is just beautiful..

Having said that, nobody does it better than the Russians. These two on the SU-57 are gorgeous IMO. The "plane inside a plane" smaller image also gives the impression that the "smaller plane" has canards. Not sure if that was deliberate, but found it interesting nonetheless...
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Unread post16 May 2019, 11:33

Venom 19-01
15 May 2019 Staff Sgt. BreeAnn Sachs, 49th Wing Public Affairs

"HILL AIR FORCE BASE, Utah -- In response to Air Force senior leader priorities, Holloman Air Force Base’s 311th Fighter Squadron put their readiness and lethality to the test by deploying to Hill Air Force Base, Utah, for dissimilar air combat training with the F-35 Lightning II, April 22 to May 3, 2019....

...Week one of the exercise consisted of adversarial training with the F-35, both student and instructor pilots had the opportunity to dog fight with the Air Force’s newest operational 5th generation fighter aircraft. “Looking off your wing and seeing an F-35 gives you one of those ‘America is pretty cool’ moments,” said Colas. “We train against F-16s all the time at home, and don’t get to see the difference in performance (between different airframes). Seeing how good the F-16 is against even the newest aircraft is awesome and gives you a lot of confidence.”

In addition to flying as adversaries, 311th FS instructor pilots had the opportunity to operate as allies in week two of the exercise. “The instructor pilots flew missions directly with the F-35 on the ‘good guy’ or blue air side,” said Capt. Danielle Park, 311th FS instructor pilot. “The students are getting to see exactly what goes into mission planning and debriefing, which is really important. Personally, I didn’t get to see that until my first Combat Air Force assignment. They’re getting to see a lot of important mission sets that they might not get to see (again) until later on in the CAF.”

Venom 19-01 also aligned with Hill’s Combat Showcase, which took place April 30 to May 1, 2019. Holloman’s F-16s flew alongside F-16s from Kunsan Air Base, Korea, and F-35’s from Hill’s 388th Fighter Wing and reserve 419th Fighter Wing.

This is the first time the 311th FS’s current Basic Course students have flown with a dissimilar airframe, an experience many seasoned pilots will not have until later in their careers. “When I went through the B-Course, I didn’t fly against any dissimilar aircraft,” said Maj. David Abel, 311th FS instructor pilot. “The biggest benefit I’ve seen from us fighting the F-35 is not simply having F-16 pilots learn about the F-35; the F-35 pilots are learning about the things we can and can’t do. When they look to use F-16s in their fight they can see how to work with them, to make sure they get what they need.”

This is also the first time B-Course students from Holloman’s Flying Training Units have ever flown with the F-35. “The 8th Fighter Squadron did an instructor pilot TDY with the F-35 in Oregon in the summer, but there were no B-Course students or brand new Viper pilots flying,” said Park...."

Source: https://www.aetc.af.mil/News/Article/18 ... nom-19-01/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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