F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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FANTASMA

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Unread post29 May 2006, 14:00

Hi there,

I would like to here options about the ability of F-35 in case of EF Typhoon tries to intercept or engage to air combat with it to survive? Does the Typhoon has any chances or the JSF will prevail?

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Driver

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Unread post29 May 2006, 14:13

For bombing a city, choose the F-35 JSF.

For bombing a city, defending your airspace, escort transport planes etc., choose the EFA.

Really the EFA is better on all fronts except range which can be dealt with. The JSF does have stealth though but very little and there are nations that are well on their way to make stealth useless.
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FANTASMA

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Unread post29 May 2006, 14:34

I think when EFA develops the ability to launch Meteor and Iris-T JSF will be troubled..Maybe silly but jsf has stelth technology the EFA how capable is to detect with its radar the JSF..The crucial in future air combats is who detects first the enemy, the range of the "goodies", supercruise ability etc etc..i would like to listen comparison between the two aircrafts..
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sferrin

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Unread post29 May 2006, 15:57

Driver wrote:For bombing a city, choose the F-35 JSF.

For bombing a city, defending your airspace, escort transport planes etc., choose the EFA.

Really the EFA is better on all fronts except range which can be dealt with. The JSF does have stealth though but very little and there are nations that are well on their way to make stealth useless.


JSF has very little stealth? :roll:
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Driver

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Unread post29 May 2006, 16:05

Compared to what's out there... Yes.
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RonO

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Unread post29 May 2006, 19:18

One of the most important things about JSF is that it's being built down to a price so if you are an air force looking for your next fast jet, the comparison should be one EF vs two JSF.

If stealth is so useless, why is every single future design from all aircraft designers so stealthy? Dassault & Bae stutter on how stealth doesn't matter yet you go look at what's on their design boards and what they're flying as demonstrators & prototypes. Major case of watch what I do and don't listen to what I say.

BTW, JSF can go to sea & fly from small airstrips, EF cannot do either.
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boff180

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Unread post29 May 2006, 21:34

EF can fly from small strips, STOL was a design requirement... very very short take-off run and uses a drag chute to shorten its landing distance when required.

Andy
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RonO

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Unread post29 May 2006, 23:20

Wrong. STOL was dropped from the Typhoon requirements to save money.
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boff180

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Unread post29 May 2006, 23:21

Well it still can take off and land in quite short distances... especially take off ;) witnessed with my own eyes :)
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Whiteman_B2

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Unread post30 May 2006, 00:52

Driver wrote:For bombing a city, choose the F-35 JSF.

For bombing a city, defending your airspace, escort transport planes etc., choose the EFA.

Really the EFA is better on all fronts except range which can be dealt with. The JSF does have stealth though but very little and there are nations that are well on their way to make stealth useless.

Interesting point of view. I'll put my money on Typhoon getting foxtrot uniform before it knows what hit it.
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RonO

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Unread post30 May 2006, 00:55

With zero or little load any modern fast jet can take off in a short distance. Doesn't mean it can effectively operate from short strips. With no load an F-15 can take off in a few hundred feet and go vertical. I've seen them do it many times at air displays. I also see them every day thru my window take off on combat exercises. They then need & take thousands of feet of concrete and bootfulls of a/b to get airborne and when they come back, they need thousands of feet more.
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boff180

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Unread post30 May 2006, 01:00

Actually whiteman, thats what the Norwegian F-35 representative said in an interview recently.

Or to put it exactly.

If you want to bomb baghdad with cheap cheap weapons: F-35
If you want air dominance, airspace defence and the ability to bomb bahdad using expensive stand-off weapons: Typhoon.

Except for stealth, the F-35 doesn't really have any advantages over Typhoon... they both are pretty much equal on the Situational Awareness front.

And if they expect an F-35 to merge and it isn't an RAF or Australian one... well stealth will mean sweet FA if its carrying Aim-9X on external pylons! It also remains to be seen if Meteor will be able to be carried internally at all (definately not on the F-35B)!

Also as AESA radar tachnology advances the detection range of something with the RCS of F-35 is getting longer and longer. CAESAR in its base configuration is in the same class as the F-22's AESA, just think what further enhances in the next 20 years will bring.

Andy
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idesof

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Unread post30 May 2006, 01:10

Driver wrote:For bombing a city, choose the F-35 JSF.

For bombing a city, defending your airspace, escort transport planes etc., choose the EFA.

Really the EFA is better on all fronts except range which can be dealt with. The JSF does have stealth though but very little and there are nations that are well on their way to make stealth useless.


I realize this is a discussion board and therefore, obviously, topics are up for debate and as such, different views may be proffered. However, I have been reading the posts on this board for the past several weeks with a great deal of interest regarding the views expressed herein and few posts have struck me as completely off the mark as the one quoted above. Firstly, the claim that the F-35 (JSF) possesses "very little" in the way of stealth is an outlandish claim without any sort of evidence to back it up. Indeed, while it has been argued the F-35 will not achieve the same degree of all-angle stealth as the F-22, not even the F-35's most vehement detractors claim it is in possession of "very little" stealth. While the stealth properties of the F-22 and F-35 are distinguishable by a matter of degree, the qualitative difference between the F-35's stealth capabilities and those of the Typhoon is separated by several orders of magnitude. Secondly, Carl Sagan was fond of saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." The assertion made above, that "nations" are "well on their way" to making stealth "useless" is an extraordinary claim for which evidence is neither offered by the writer nor proven by another known, reliable source, let alone sources. All else is conjecture until proven otherwise.

Therefore, on the merits of its advantage conferred by stealth alone, in air combat the F-35 will see an enemy, and shoot that enemy, much earlier than will the Typhoon, even after the latter is given an updated AESA radar later in the century. In a hypothetical and unlikely head-to-head match-up, all else being equal (support elements, pilot skill, etc.), the Typhoon will be terminated more than likely before its pilot is even aware he or she is under attack. It is important to note that at this stage of its development, when the USAF is trying to secure funding for additional F-22s, the F-35's air-to-air capabilities, which are not significantly lesser than its larger cousin's, are being purposely down-played so as not to alert Congress that the F-35 will be significantly cheaper, but not significantly less capable, than the F-22. Indeed, it is very much like the F-15 vs. F-16 debate the USAF was engaged in during the 1970s and 80s. As has been widely acknowledged, the F-15 is not an inherently superior air-superiority fighter vis-a-vis the F-16. Had the USAF optimized the F-16 from early on for the air-superiority role, the USAF would have never needed to buy the F-15, period. See Pierre Sprey and John Boyd. An F-35, optimized for the air-to-air role, would not be inferior to the F-22. However, even when its air-to-air performance is compromised by its need to be a bomb truck, when the F-35 enters service it will be second only to the F-22 in the air-dominance mission. The evidence of this are all the countries--which must use the F-35 in both air-to-ground and air dominance roles--that are opting to wait several years for the arrival of the F-35 instead of procuring the Typhoon, despite the makers of the latter practically paying other nations to purchase their already obsolete design. Indeed, the capability gap between the F-35 and the Typhoon at all levels in favor of the former is greater yet than that between a late-model F-16 and an early-model Mig-23 (again, of course, in favor of the former).

Sadly for the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, Saudi Arabia and whoever else has made the disastrous mistake to purchase this relic of a by-gone era, the Typhoon will soon be almost, but not quite, as irrelevant as the so-called Super Hornet. The F-35 will exceed the Typhoon at all levels, including maneuverability. Despite the latter's canards, I am astounded by how very little people on this board understand the very peculiar yet very unbeatable aerodynamic configuration common to both the F-22 and F-35. The enormous control surfaces, set far behind the axis of gravity in both as well as far behind the engine, provide a degree of maneuverability unmatched by any comers. Again, the USAF is being coy about the F-35 in this regard, but this aircraft will not be beaten by any aircraft now flying except for the F-22. Were the F-35 to be fitted with thrust-vectoring, however, it would be more maneuverable yet than the F-22.
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Whiteman_B2

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Unread post30 May 2006, 01:24

Well, my take is that LM is claiming that F-35 will be at least as effective in A2A as the Viper, and the Viper is pretty effective. Now combine LO tech with that and you have pretty decent LWF, as well as a mud mover.
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boff180

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Unread post30 May 2006, 01:35

Therefore, on the merits of its advantage conferred by stealth alone, in air combat the F-35 will see an enemy, and shoot that enemy, much earlier than will the Typhoon, even after the latter is given an updated AESA radar later in the century.


Incorrect, the CAESAR has a larger detection range than the APG-81, and is said to be in the same class as the APG-77.

Current figures suggest...
Captor v F-35 = 23~32 km
Caesar v F-35 = 85~100km
APG-81 v Ef = 87 km

The assertion made above, that "nations" are "well on their way" to making stealth


There have been no "white" flying projects that have been pilotted vehicles.

Try looking up BAE's "Replica"; which is not known if it flew or not.
On the stealth UAV front, look at BAE's Corax... and on the stealth UCAV front, the EADS Barracuda.

UK in particular has concentrated more on active cancellation technologies more than aircraft design solutions. We are also looking at skipping the pilotted stealth stage and going direct to stealth UCAVs.

Sadly for the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, Saudi Arabia and whoever else has made the disastrous mistake to purchase this relic of a by-gone era, the Typhoon will soon be almost, but not quite, as irrelevant as the so-called Super Hornet. The F-35 will exceed the Typhoon at all levels, including maneuverability. Despite the latter's canards, I am astounded by how very little people on this board understand the very peculiar yet very unbeatable aerodynamic configuration common to both the F-22 and F-35. The enormous control surfaces, set far behind the axis of gravity in both as well as far behind the engine, provide a degree of maneuverability unmatched by any comers. Again, the USAF is being coy about the F-35 in this regard, but this aircraft will not be beaten by any aircraft now flying except for the F-22. Were the F-35 to be fitted with thrust-vectoring, however, it would be more maneuverable yet than the F-22.


As europeans will say, we not for once say the typhoon is better than the F-22, quite the opposite.... in the UK, the government is still trying to "sell" the F-35 to the public and so I am very well aware of its capabilities and potential. However on the otherhand, I have first hand experience of the Typhoon and I know its achievments. Calling it irrelevant is actually quite offencive.

There seems to be a big lack of understanding of Typhoon capabilities in the US; not counting stealth (which in a partial way is looking to be added in tranche 3 through active cancellation technology), the F-35 especially in the A2A does lack... in payload especially in stealthy configuration... AMRAAM only for most nations, no WVR internally. They seem to see the "oh it hasn't got stealth...." and thats it!

Also, in the modern environment, the ability to turn up the other aircrafts **** is becoming less and less pertiant. A decent HMS+sensor system and a good HOBs pretty much destroy this advantage straight away... close in, if the pilot can see you (and in the case of asraam, if he cant) they he can fire on you, regardless of where you are!

If you haven't noticed, I have not mentioned the Rafale, thats because its A2A capability, especially in the BVR arena, is very questionable due to a very poor PESA radar that has a lower detection range than the F-15C's range. It may have a good (on the surface) A2G capability but I wouldn't want one in an air dominance role.

Andy
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