F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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hythelday

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Unread post30 Mar 2019, 16:28

mixelflick wrote:This 16-0 air to air record


16 successful OCA missions is not 16 air to air wins, it could be anything from all of them to none at all.

mixelflick wrote:If you'll recall, the 15-1 (or 20-1) results prior involved F-22's. There was a lot of speculation as to what extent the F-22's "helped" the F-35's.


All those speculations (as I recall from The Aviationist) were dumb to begin with, because F-22 and F-35 can't communicate in a secure fashion anyway. One can speculate that this time F-35 were aided by friendly 4th gens too, eith as much authority.
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Unread post31 Mar 2019, 21:04

aussiebloke wrote:“The mainstream belief is that the Tolicha Peak facility houses numerous radar systems to support RED FLAG operations, given its proximity to two mock airfields. A more detailed examination provides an alternative, that of foreign SAM system exploitation and testing. Elements of S-125 (SA-3 GOA), S-200 (SA-5 GAMMON), and S-300PS (SA-10B GRUMBLE) SAM systems can be found on the grounds of Tolicha Peak.......
The most interesting facility found at Tolicha Peak is the S-300P launch site. It would appear that a nearly complete collection of radars is present, as well as two TELs and a 40V6 mast assembly. The 40V6 is used to mount either the 5N63S (FLAP LID) engagement radar or the 76N6 (CLAM SHELL) low altitude detection radar on a 23.8 meter mast to provide better performance in areas with varied terrain or vegetation.” http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html

Foreign material exploitation or Red Flag or both?


wrightwing wrote:S-300, Tor, Pantsyr, are among the threat systems.


If the 16-0 results was against this Systems, the result it's even more impressive. And confirms the Danish evaluation. Which the F-35 scored very good in S/DEAD. And with weapons like the AARGM-ER, which the f-35 can carry in its weapons bay, i would say the potential for improvement is still high.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post01 Apr 2019, 09:28

swiss wrote:
wrightwing wrote:S-300, Tor, Pantsyr, are among the threat systems.


If the 16-0 results was against this Systems, the result it's even more impressive. And confirms the Danish evaluation. Which the F-35 scored very good in S/DEAD. And with weapons like the AARGM-ER, which the f-35 can carry in its weapons bay, i would say the potential for improvement is still high.


I'd like to add that F-35 also allows pretty scary S/DEAD capabilities even without any weapons of their own. F-35 will have very good SA about the threat SAM and radar systems in the area and can get close to them to gather very accurate targeting info. They can then send the data to other assets which have suitable weapons available. These could be other F-35s, F-22s, Growlers, Super Hornets, F-16s, EF Typhoons, MLRS/ATACMS/PRSM or pretty much anything. Even if the radar system is shut off, F-35 can still target it using multiple sensors. Same is true if the radar system is mobile and is packed up and driven away. F-35 still has pretty good chance in following it driving away and targeting it for many kinds of weapons. I think F-35 will make the life of enemy SAM and radar operators very tough.
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mixelflick

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Unread post01 Apr 2019, 13:14

The F-35 can track/target a SAM system that isn't radiating, per se?

This is the first I've heard of that capability. Can other aircraft do that and if so, how long has it been going on?? I admit I'm not up on such things, so this was a new one on me..
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Unread post01 Apr 2019, 13:38

mixelflick wrote:The F-35 can track/target a SAM system that isn't radiating, per se?

This is the first I've heard of that capability. Can other aircraft do that and if so, how long has it been going on?? I admit I'm not up on such things, so this was a new one on me..


I was referring to using EOTS and AN/APG-81 to track those targets after they are detected and located from their radar signals. Naturally in F-35 that would automatically be done by the sensor fusion engine. Both of those sensors would definitely be capable of tracking SAM system pretty far away even though F-35 can also get quite close to it without being detected. SAM systems and radars are pretty large and easily recognizable objects in the battlefield. They also have to be in pretty visible locations to be able to do their job.
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Unread post01 Apr 2019, 13:52

mixelflick wrote:The F-35 can track/target a SAM system that isn't radiating, per se?

This is the first I've heard of that capability. Can other aircraft do that and if so, how long has it been going on?? I admit I'm not up on such things, so this was a new one on me..


During the 2nd gulf war, Wild Weasels had to drop below the clouds into the range of AAA and IR Manpads, visually ID these launch sites after getting shot at, point the aircraft towards the SAM site to mark it electronically for datalinking to other Wild Weasels who will destroy them using WCMD CEMs. Thats how DEAD is done with with legacy platforns. SEAD using HARMS is simply not enough and have no decisive impact on the adversary. With the F-35, launch points can be detected with DAS, sites be ID and marked with high-res SAR through the clouds and targeting info be datalinked out to any shooters in the area. Network SAMs launchers can now be destroyed even without any organic sensors radiating once they shoot. And there are plenty of MALDs to trigger the shooting.
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Unread post01 Apr 2019, 20:34

hornetfinn wrote:I'd like to add that F-35 also allows pretty scary S/DEAD capabilities even without any weapons of their own. F-35 will have very good SA about the threat SAM and radar systems in the area and can get close to them to gather very accurate targeting info. They can then send the data to other assets which have suitable weapons available. These could be other F-35s, F-22s, Growlers, Super Hornets, F-16s, EF Typhoons, MLRS/ATACMS/PRSM or pretty much anything. Even if the radar system is shut off, F-35 can still target it using multiple sensors. Same is true if the radar system is mobile and is packed up and driven away. F-35 still has pretty good chance in following it driving away and targeting it for many kinds of weapons. I think F-35 will make the life of enemy SAM and radar operators very tough.


I can imagine it. I think especially see based weapons are predestined for this job.
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 12:29

spazsinbad wrote:Good find 'wrightwing' - thanks for that - I'll add some quotes if I may.
RAAF F-35A Lightnings will take part in their first exercise.
27 Feb 2019 Jaryd Stock

"...AIRCDRE Kitcher explained yesterday in a press conference hosted by Lockheed Martin Australia that in the recent Red Flag 19-1 exercise at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, in one sortie undertaken by Australian F/A-18 Hornets as part of the Blue force, a USAF F-35 pilot with only 150 hours since coming out of the worldwide training program located at Luke AFB, was able to warn a pilot in a F/A-18 with 3000 hours flight time that there was a Red Air aggressor closing on his position. He then give instruction on how to proceed to to escape, and the F-35 nullified the Red Air target.

This account gives an accurate description of how the F-35’s sensor suite is a game changer in situational awareness in a conflicted airspace.

During Red Flag 19-1 AIRCDRE Kitcher witnessed first hand flying with 77 Squadron the abilities of the F-35 first hand, He says: “For me it was very pleasing to witness the F-35 in a strike mission, to see an eight-ship of F-35s kick down the door against a fairly determined adversary, with support from some F-22s to hold the door open.

“The F-35s then went back to pick up the strike train which consisted of classic Hornets from 77 Squadron, Super Hornets from the US Navy, Typhoons from the Royal Air Force and supported by US Navy Growlers and USAF F-16 SEAD aircraft.

“The F-35s took that strike train deep in the training area through some significant air defences, everyone dropped their ordnance and everyone got out safely. While that was going on there were Growlers and F-16s suppressing enemy air defences and when the F-35s dropped their ordnance they were actually providing SEAD as well. The whole strike train got out safely thanks to the F-35’s efforts.”..."

Source: https://www.aeroaustraliamag.com/raaf-f ... -exercise/


The F35 is truly a renaissance aircraft. It does everything well!
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Unread post03 Apr 2019, 13:30

From The Aviationist..

In 2002, everybody came in into fight, moving from BVR (Beyond Visual Range) and eventually to WVR (Within Visual Range) for a big merge; today, the adversaries roughly know where the stealth fighter *could* be, but they don’t know exactly where they are, how they will approach the target or maneuver to engage the enemy.

Now, this business about "the adversaries roughly know where the stealth fighter "could" be.. Is this to imply those who oversee the exercise (or whoever) is telling the Red force where the F-35 "generally" is? Or does it mean enemy Red Air fighters, SAM's etc can determine that themselves?? If anyone has any insight, I'd like to know..
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Unread post03 Apr 2019, 13:54

The 'mixelflick' quote above is from here: https://theaviationist.com/2017/05/31/r ... ture-wars/

Red Flag Memories: Combat Pilot Explains How RF Has Evolved And Why The F-35 Is A Real Game Changer In Future Wars 31 May 2017 Alessandro "Gonzo" Olivares
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post16 Apr 2019, 17:32

I don't see this old article anywhere however photo here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=27445&p=415687&hilit=boxing#p415687
62nd Fighter Squadron brings its partner nation cohesion to the fight at Red Flag
27 Mar 2019 LM PR

"The “Spikes” of the 62nd Fighter Squadron returned from a successful trip to Red Flag at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., March 22, 2019. Their success could be measured by the fact that they have a training mission at Luke Air Force Base that had to continue while they were gone. They took five F-35A Lighting IIs with no student sorties lost at Luke. Or it could be measured with the 110 surface-to-air missiles they eliminated. Or perhaps the 87 total sorties supporting 18 large force missions with a perfect turn pattern.

“This was the first time the F-35 was the dedicated SEAD [Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses] asset,” said Lt. Col. Pete Lee, 62nd FS commander. “We had a job and it was to protect other people and the F-35 is very good at that. We have the legs to protect the entire strike train and we covered the whole time.”

While the stats read well, Lee also said the real story is that of the team’s integration and cohesion, which means much more to the 62nd FS and the F-35 program as a whole. This was the first time the Italian and Norwegian F-35 instructor pilots from the 62nd FS were included in the exercise….

...“At first, no one quite knew what to do with us, but after the second week, our coalition partners saw that we could protect them and we earned their trust,” said Lee. “Which was the purpose of Red Flag 19-2. Trust is the cornerstone and we were there building it.”

The team’s cohesion went beyond that of the Spikes when Maj. Gen. Peter Gersten, U.S. Air Force Warfare Center commander, flew a mission in one of their F-35s with a Norwegian lead and two Italian instructor pilots....

...The other takeaways from the exercise came in many forms and Lee added that while they taught the participating units about the integration of the F-35 in a strike package, his team learned a lot from the others as well.

“We are a learning organization and Red Flag was the classroom,” said Lee. “The instructor pilots that we brought back are fired up about teaching what they learned and what matters is how we spread that knowledge.”"

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/62nd-fi ... ight-at-re
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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zero-one

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Unread post17 Apr 2019, 08:00

Question, can RF exercises replicate advanced SAM threats like the S-400?
I often hear Russian fans unimpressed by F-22 and F-35s scoring mass kills in RF.

Their reasoning is that an F-15 or F-16 is a world apart from a Flanker.
I can counter by saying that the US actually has Flankers in their inventory, so its much easier for them to estimate the much vaunted super maneuverability of the later variants which use the exact same wing and aerodynamic profile as the latest ones. Avionics is much easier to replicate as the Russians are known to be behind in that department.

But what about SAMs, the S-400 is considered the top of its class in land bassed SAMs, albeit Its western counterpart should be the Aegis system. Thats a more fair comparison.
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Unread post17 Apr 2019, 08:28

zero-one wrote:Question, can RF exercises replicate advanced SAM threats like the S-400?
I often hear Russian fans unimpressed by F-22 and F-35s scoring mass kills in RF.

Their reasoning is that an F-15 or F-16 is a world apart from a Flanker.
I can counter by saying that the US actually has Flankers in their inventory, so its much easier for them to estimate the much vaunted super maneuverability of the later variants which use the exact same wing and aerodynamic profile as the latest ones. Avionics is much easier to replicate as the Russians are known to be behind in that department.

But what about SAMs, the S-400 is considered the top of its class in land bassed SAMs, albeit Its western counterpart should be the Aegis system. Thats a more fair comparison.


The US possesses S-300 systems at our ranges. The F-35 has also blown up S-300 sites in Syria.
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Unread post17 Apr 2019, 09:12

And S-400 is just an upgraded S-300, not really a totally new system. It uses the same missiles and radars or their upgraded variants. So it's not really that huge improvement in capability over S-300PMU variants. Especially when it comes to RF exercises where many things can be and are simulated.
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Unread post17 Apr 2019, 10:03

zero-one wrote:Question, can RF exercises replicate advanced SAM threats like the S-400?
I often hear Russian fans unimpressed by F-22 and F-35s scoring mass kills in RF.


Replicating any kind of ground based threat system is pretty easy nowadays with LVC. It doesn't matter if there are actual physical systems or not. Actually LVC systems allow better realism than using real world systems as real missiles aren't fired in any case and there are many restrictions in using the systems in exercises as they would be used in real war. For example real S-400 batteries take a lot of manpower and support to operate. That would be difficult to realize even in large exercises like RF.
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