What the Chinese think about Russian Su-35S

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

knowan

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 246
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2018, 10:39

Unread post11 Mar 2019, 18:00

fidgetspinner wrote:Now not to be a comedian


No need; posters here are well aware you are a joke, considering how many other accounts you've gone through on these forums.
Offline

babybat{}.net

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 86
  • Joined: 08 Sep 2017, 19:16

Unread post11 Mar 2019, 18:53

milosh wrote:There is lot unknown about WS-15 for example you will see 180kN thurst which I don't see how they could pull from AL-31 size engine.

WS-15 based on R-79 Hot section from yak-141.
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5400
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post11 Mar 2019, 19:14

babybat{}.net wrote:
milosh wrote:There is lot unknown about WS-15 for example you will see 180kN thurst which I don't see how they could pull from AL-31 size engine.

WS-15 based on R-79 Hot section from yak-141.


Show your supporting evidence.
"There I was. . ."
Offline

tphuang

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 49
  • Joined: 13 Aug 2018, 02:42

Unread post11 Mar 2019, 21:04

weasel1962 wrote:Maybe people are reading too much into this. Last year I did a count and there are maybe 17 J-7 Air brigades (Scramble still shows 22) that could still be operation not including another 2-3 training units. All these need replacement.

The Su-35, being the most advanced fighter on sale from the Russians, could just be a gap filler whilst the PLAAF ramps up J-16 production. Looked how fast the PLAAF brought the Su-35 into service. Practically flying around Taiwan after delivery. Ease of induction suggests the Su-35 aren't too different from the other suks.

right on point here.

mixelflick wrote:So if it's outclassed by the J-10C and J-16, and its avionics and weapons are inferior to Chinese models. And the 117S will be obsolete soon... why did they buy it again?

I'm guessing range maybe?

Not sure if drop tanks were part of the package, but an SU-35 with tanks should be the longest ranged PLAAF fighter... perhaps even longer ranged than the J-20. I was just under the impression all along the engine was what they were acquiring it for. Either they did too (and found out otherwise), or they had some basic curiosity as to its "other" capabilities.

Sounds like after tearing it apart, they found most of it wanting?

I think they just needed replacement for a lot of frontline unit. Back when they started negotiation with Russians, it was not set in stone that J-16 would turn out successful. They have in the past made Russian purchases which seemed to make no sense later (like when they bought Sov destroyers). it was just a matter of having backup in case of domestic option gets delayed or has problems. When you are flushed with cash like PLA, buying 24 su-35 is not a big deal. There were stuff they definitely like about it, like the engine and Irbis radar.

mixelflick wrote:Tphuang, what do you mean when you say, "aerodynamically speaking the SU-35 is better than the other Flankers in Chinese service"?

I realize it's bigger, but the basic platform looks similar (if not identical) to earlier Flankers. Widely spaced engine nacelles, the "tunnel" providing space for lower drag weapons/lift/fuel. Blended wing/body, twin tails, etc.. The basic Flanker airframe looks draggy, and that seems to be true of the SU-35 as well.

Is there something special about that SU-35 that aerodynamically sets it apart? For some reason, I'm just not seeing it...

Aside from having a more powerful and less smoky engine, I've read from Chinese sources that su-35 does turn better at various speed vs su-27/30. We'd need someone more familiar with flankers to comment here. But one thing I remember reading several years ago was that su-30mkk fixed certain turn limitations that su-27 had at transonic speed. I don't know how accurate that is.

J-16 is based on su-30mkk, so it's heavier (being two seated) than su-35. Also, SAC, which designed/manufactures J-16 using locally available components, just doesn't have the same ability to make the changes to flanker platform as Sukhoi, since it doesn't have all the data that Sukhoi has from years of developing/testing flankers.
Offline

milosh

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 813
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post12 Mar 2019, 08:46

sferrin wrote:
babybat{}.net wrote:
milosh wrote:There is lot unknown about WS-15 for example you will see 180kN thurst which I don't see how they could pull from AL-31 size engine.

WS-15 based on R-79 Hot section from yak-141.


Show your supporting evidence.


Couple of texts on net mentioned they bought documentation and engine from Russians. And if engine is +180kN as you can find on Chinese net then it must be big engine (not AL-31 size class), if it is really AL-31 size engine then Chinese achieved breakthrough in engine tech.
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1710
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore

Unread post12 Mar 2019, 08:54

Actually, that's what the Russians claimed (about Yak 141), not Chinese claims.
https://tiananmenstremendousachievement ... g/yak-141/

The reality is that china probably got its engine tech from a number of sources especially Ukrainian.
Offline

milosh

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 813
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post12 Mar 2019, 10:42

weasel1962 wrote:Actually, that's what the Russians claimed (about Yak 141), not Chinese claims.
https://tiananmenstremendousachievement ... g/yak-141/

The reality is that china probably got its engine tech from a number of sources especially Ukrainian.


We are talking about engine size, that is why we mentioned russian sources about R-79. WS15 is 180kN class engine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20131208202 ... Summit.pdf

So if WS15 can replace AL-31 which they use in J-10 and J-11/16 then it would mean its dimensions are almost same as AL-31, but engine thrust class is more of F135 which is noticeable bigger engine so Chinese are leap ahead even Americans in engine tech (very unlikely) or WS15 is BIG probable even bigger engine then F135 if it is 180kN class that is why sources about R-79 need to be consider relevant.

If WS15 isn't 180kN class engine then that we could talk about replacing AL-31 engine family with it.
Offline

madrat

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2290
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 03:12

Unread post12 Mar 2019, 13:15

So which Chinese engine has CFM6 core technology?
Offline

knowan

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 246
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2018, 10:39

Unread post12 Mar 2019, 21:33

milosh wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Actually, that's what the Russians claimed (about Yak 141), not Chinese claims.
https://tiananmenstremendousachievement ... g/yak-141/

The reality is that china probably got its engine tech from a number of sources especially Ukrainian.


We are talking about engine size, that is why we mentioned russian sources about R-79. WS15 is 180kN class engine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20131208202 ... Summit.pdf

So if WS15 can replace AL-31 which they use in J-10 and J-11/16 then it would mean its dimensions are almost same as AL-31, but engine thrust class is more of F135 which is noticeable bigger engine so Chinese are leap ahead even Americans in engine tech (very unlikely) or WS15 is BIG probable even bigger engine then F135 if it is 180kN class that is why sources about R-79 need to be consider relevant.

If WS15 isn't 180kN class engine then that we could talk about replacing AL-31 engine family with it.


The Chinese were claiming 9:1 T/W ratio with a 36,000 lbf thrust figure, so that's a 4000 lb dry-weight engine versus AL-41 in the 3,500 lb dry-weight class.

It certainly is a heavier engine, closer to the F135 in weight (which has been estimated anywhere from 3700 to 5000 lbs) than the AL-41, but the volume might still be close enough for it to replace the AL-41.

It is highly likely to require airframe changes though, so any J-11/15/16 with the WS-15 would require new airframes, it wouldn't be possible to retrofit existing planes with the engine.
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1710
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore

Unread post13 Mar 2019, 06:37

Not sure where that WS-15 info is gotten from. AFAIK, the original published source of WS-15 thrust was a conference brochure back in 2013.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131208202 ... Summit.pdf
Previous

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests