Basic instincts: Resetting USMC core operational mindset

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quicksilver

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 17:27

vilters wrote:100 combat sorties over 50 days means exactly that. => 2 combat sorties /day.

One aircraft flew twice, or 2 aircraft flew ONCE. Sorry guys, nothing to write home about.


The problem with that is the “1200hrs” quote. That makes the ASD 12; not unheard of, but very unlikely. Thus, my caveat “if the reporting is correct.”
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 17:30

spazsinbad wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Is it considered a "sortie" if they don't drop the bomb?

What else would it be? Do YOU define a 'sortie' in some other way?

I was just trying to make the numbers make sense.

My thought was if an F-35B goes up with a couple of 500lb JDAMs, circles the battlefield for a while waiting for the call, then RTBs without dropping them then maybe it was not counted in the specific metric that drove the report.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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quicksilver

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 17:34

citanon wrote:The wording of the article caused me some confusion. 1200 hours IS 50 days. So my take is they are saying that the F-35B had 50 days in accumulated combat flight hours through the deployment.

At first I thought the ship was out for 50 days.


Ship typically out for about 6 mos. These days 6ish +/- a bit depending on what’s going on. 50 days on station launching jets in one lump would be unusual; ESGs do lotsa other stuff besides launch strike sorties.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 17:37

SpudmanWP wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Is it considered a "sortie" if they don't drop the bomb?

What else would it be? Do YOU define a 'sortie' in some other way?

I was just trying to make the numbers make sense.

My thought was if an F-35B goes up with a couple of 500lb JDAMs, circles the battlefield for a while waiting for the call, then RTBs without dropping them then maybe it was not counted in the specific metric that drove the report.

OK - yes Confucius REIGNS eh. :roll:
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 18:56

vilters wrote:100 combat sorties over 50 days means exactly that. => 2 combat sorties /day.

One aircraft flew twice, or 2 aircraft flew ONCE. Sorry guys, nothing to write home about.


One, a combat sortie can be 1 aircraft or 100 aircraft in a sortie, and aircraft often do not fly alone. Please don't comment on things as if you have knowledge about them but clearly demonstrate that you don't.

Two, they maintained a 75% readiness rate which is better than the average for legacy aircraft. That is irrespective of sorties.
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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 19:02

“Term Source: JP 3-30 (Command and Control of Joint Air Operations)

1.) In air operations, an operational flight by one aircraft.

In the United States, military vocabulary is standardized by the Department of Defence. These terms are used by the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps.”

https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Document ... jp3_30.pdf
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wrightwing

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 19:17

vilters wrote:100 combat sorties over 50 days means exactly that. => 2 combat sorties /day.

One aircraft flew twice, or 2 aircraft flew ONCE. Sorry guys, nothing to write home about.

"F-35Bs flew MORE than 100 combat sorties against the Taliban and ISIS while deployed aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Essex,"

That's certainly a pronounced increase in OPTEMPO, and absolutely something to write home about, as is twice the missions as AV-8Bs could generate, and >75% MC rate.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 21:31

IIRC did not we read that some F-35Bs landed in Kandahar? How does that affect the mind boggle under discussion here.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54421&p=403086&hilit=Kandahar#p403086 [p.10 of F-35B in the ME for first time thread]

Also:
Department of Defense Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms page 225: "sortie — In air operations, an operational flight by one aircraft. (JP 3-30)" [cited by 'QS' earlier (I'm self referential much?)] https://fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp1_02.pdf (1.9Mb)

Another 3F software citation: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54421&p=401681&hilit=land+software#p401681
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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quicksilver

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 22:24

wrightwing wrote:
vilters wrote:100 combat sorties over 50 days means exactly that. => 2 combat sorties /day.

One aircraft flew twice, or 2 aircraft flew ONCE. Sorry guys, nothing to write home about.

"F-35Bs flew MORE than 100 combat sorties against the Taliban and ISIS while deployed aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Essex,"

That's certainly a pronounced increase in OPTEMPO, and absolutely something to write home about, as is twice the missions as AV-8Bs could generate, and >75% MC rate.


The reporting seems to be a bit jumbled. I wouldn’t make too much about any of it apart from the fact that they went, they saw, they conquered, they brought all the jets home and they didn’t get bad headlines while doing so. Flight hour production for Harrier Dets aboard amphibs can vary greatly from float to float (by over 100 percent) as does aircraft availability. 75% is good but only compared to the somewhat depressed standards assumed these days with limited funding.

“They done good.” Leave it at that.
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Unread post28 Feb 2019, 01:12

First Marine F-35B Combat Deployment Hints at New Roles for Amphibious Ready Group
27 Feb 2019 Gidget Fuentes [LONG POST BEST READ AT SOURCE]

"After eight months at sea with a squadron of F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighters, the Marines and the Navy are seeing how the next-generation aircraft will expand the effectiveness of U.S. amphibious forces....

...“The aircraft and its integration with the ship and integration with the mission exceed my expectations,” Lt. Col. Kyle Shoop, who commands VMFA-211, told USNI News. “Just in our time with 5th Fleet, we supported over 50 days of combat for over 1,200 flight hours … didn’t drop a single line of FRAG or combat support.”

At times, the jets flew off Essex for long missions, “and we kept employing ordnance in both theaters,” Shoop said, referring to Afghanistan for Operation Freedom Sentinel and Syria and Iraq for Operation Inherent Resolve.

“The jet itself proved to be very reliable. Throughout that whole time period, Marines did a great job keeping it serviceable,” he said. “We were gone away from the ship for an extreme amount of time – a lot of times over five, six hours away from the ship – and they’d turn them around that night to fly again the next day. So that went really well.”

The F-35B performed “like we expected,” Shoop added. “Some of the sensors onboard would do better than, say, a Harrier would through adverse weather or things like that. So it proved to be pretty versatile.”

The F-35B crews operated from Essex for nearly all missions, except when the ship pulled into port for a mid-deployment repair.

“We did step off the ship during that time to keep employing the aircraft in theater, so we did a short period of time ashore,” Shoop said. “We were used for defensive counter-air in-theater, as well as sustaining alerts on the ship, able to launch with air-to-air weapons,” he added....

...“We learned some things along the way, especially with supportability of low-observable airplane aboard the ship,” Shoop said. “Obviously, there’s a lot of corrosion concerns aboard the ship. Saltwater is on it all the time, so for over eight months we got to learn a lot of lessons from that. In fact, Lockheed was out here just recently. We hosted them. They are very interested in coming to check out one of the airplanes as we come back ashore, to capture those lessons, maybe change some materials, et cetera.”...

...“This was a great deployment for us, a great experience especially with being a part of a new, revolutionary aircraft and figuring out how we’re going to use (the F-35B),” Olin said. “There’s a lot of lessons that we learned and to be learned.”"

Source: https://news.usni.org/2019/02/27/first- ... eady-group
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