US Navy F-16A NSAWC Cockpit

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masterguns

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Unread post17 May 2018, 22:45

Howdy, y'all

I'm having a doggone heck of a time finding a decent conglomaration of photos of these Viper's cokpits. Specifically if there's a camera as was in the original F-16A? If so, was it forward or aft of the HUD? I understand these were new build F-16A OCU's for Pakistan before they were flown straight to AMARC from the factory after the embargo & then the USN received then 2002'ish? Please correct me if my intel is whiskey delta. I'm sure this has been hashed over many times here. Back on track....further, did these center topside front IP protrude more inward (toward the pilot) more like the later Blk 25 & later Blk's in USAF/ANG/AFRES or the Blk 30 F-16N, etc., etc.? The two best reference books I have on the subject matter & the pic I've seen on this site don't give me the angle for a USN F-16A OCU I need to build mine in 1/48.

Might one of you fine gents happen to have any decent cockpit pics, especially higher on the main IP? Heck, I can compromise the side instruments, but if you have pics of those, too, that would but greatly appreciated. If none of the above can be produced or link(s) provided I can take clear instructions from anyone in the know that has intiment knowledge on the subject matter with regard to the current USN F-16A. Sorry for the long, boring post but any & all assistance is greatly appreciated. I like to build the most accurated scale plastic jets I can & I need your help. I was ground side USMC for 30 years, always a military jet enthusiast. Thanks a ton!

Semper Fi,
Masterguns
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35_aoa

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Unread post18 May 2018, 00:18

Master Guns,

Welcome! I flew the NSAWC (now "NAWDC") Vipers for a couple years, and while I don't have any personal pictures of the cockpit to share, I might be able to give you some rudder steer if you have pictures of what you are wondering about. I don't have any other frame of reference in terms of other blocks of Viper (never been in one or seen the inside of one), but they were pretty basic block 15 A's and B's, and I'd be surprised if they differed much from the other FMS block 15's.

As for cameras, let me see a picture of both types. I never noticed anything forward of the HUD to my recollection, and we certainly didn't have any "elbow" cams like we had in low lot Hornets.
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dragracingmaniac

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Unread post18 May 2018, 04:46

Last time I was at NAS Fallon the F-16's there had the cameras aft of the HUD combining glass.
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adamschallau

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Unread post18 May 2018, 05:43

I found this here on the forum: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=785&p=9818
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masterguns

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Unread post19 May 2018, 05:24

Thank ya much, gents. Here’s one version with no visible camera which leans me toward no camera required or it’s in front on the HUD (as in the same pos the pilot sits). However, I don’t know if that’s how they originally came off the line for Pakistan or if modded once accepted by the USN?

Image
(Credit to original photographer)

vs.

Image
(credit to original photographer)


Semper Fi,
Masterguns
Last edited by masterguns on 20 May 2018, 02:11, edited 5 times in total.
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30mm

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Unread post19 May 2018, 16:46

The Navy F-16s do have cameras and they are located forward of the HUD combining glass just like a block 30/40/50. Also the center pedestal does protrude a bit further back towards the pilot than a “normal” F-16. I can’t post photos because I’m not allowed to take any a work but, I looked at one last night that’s in depot for maintaince.
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masterguns

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Unread post20 May 2018, 05:23

Thanks much for your tech knowledge & guidance on this subject thus far, wardogs! I think i have it pretty well figured out enough for me to accurately jump into this resin cockpit for my scale Fallon Adersary Viper. I’ll hit y’all up again when i have questions later or feel free to divulge any further Navy Viper intel you think could be benefial. I grew up aroud Phantoms mostly because of my dad & a ton of other aircraft he flew during 30+ years in the Corps. So, naturally i tend to gravitate towad US Naval or more specifically anything flown by the Corps from the Korean war era-present jet. I dont know much about Vipers despite them being in my top 10. Especially Navy Vipers. Thus the reason i joind this site.

Semper Fi,
Materguns
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35_aoa

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Unread post21 May 2018, 00:19

Of those two pictures, the top one is what the NSAWC vipers looked like (it actually looks like the photo may have been taken @ Fallon). Conversely, our sim looked like the bottom photograph. Biggest difference between the two was the lack of all the knobs and stuff on the UFC in the actual aircraft. I feel like this might have been a block 15 vs block 10 thing (all our jets were block 15), but I could be wrong about that. There may have been a few differences on the lower consoles between the two cockpit configurations, though my memory escapes me on that one.....though I seem to remember there being a couple switches/knobs that may have been slightly different.
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jbgator

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Unread post21 May 2018, 02:15

When I was in the Peace Carvin I program in 1987-1989 teaching the Singapore pilots we picked up their 8 jets (4 A and 4 B) brand new from the factory. They were very unique A/B models. LM was right in the middle of finishing up Blk 30/32 production and spinning up Blk 40. We were surprised they were (could) still producing A/B models. I did a factory tour on that first pickup and the tour guide told me they could "dial a jet" making anything the customer wanted. I do not know the politics of the original sales to Singapore, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. of these A/B models since they all eventually were approved for C/D models but they certainly were unique. They were Blk 15 OCU airframes but I suspect they had more in common with Blk 32s. The HUD was the C-model WAC HUD (we were told the frame underneath was extra bracing for the larger/heavier HUD PDU, there was no NVIS then so I don't buy the glare theory since the instruments below were the same as the USAF A/B). So it had a unique HUD control panel since the A/B used the FCNP in place of a UFC. The camera was in front of the HUD and the HUD symbology was superimposed on the video which could be off a little bit vice the original A/B-model where the camera filmed through the HUD. I only know the Singapore jets and they had some unique features that obviously were not in the Pakistan jets. The RSAF was very close to the Israelis and they had ECM and countermeasures controls unique to their jets. The Radar was an updated APG-66 from the one in our A/B models and they had AIM-P4 missiles that were sort of between the AIM-9P and the AIM-9L (electrically cooled). They did not get AIM-7 or AIM-120 in the original sale. So the Topgun jets are not like any USAF A/B models including the last production BLK 15s. The last Blk 15 I flew in 1997 looked just like the lower picture above with the small HUD, the camera behind the HUD, and the old HUD control panel. This is how the last USAF jets appeared. 35AOA you flew a jet most USAF pilots never experienced unless they participated in the delivery or exchange flying with those countries. They also had production F-100-PW-220 engines instead of being retrofitted like the USAF A/B. I went back to flying BLK 15s with the F-100-PW200 motor for a few years before the PW 220E motors were retrofitted and it was a big step back.
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35_aoa

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Unread post21 May 2018, 02:50

Interesting info jbgator! Yeah, that sounds right about the way the HUD was recorded. Image quality during playback was way better most of the time than the F/A-18 (which had a camera in front of HUD from pilot perspective).....makes sense if it were just recording raw footage in front of the airplane, rather than looking through the HUD combining glass. Come to think of it, I don't believe there was ever much HUD symbology "washout" either, which would make sense if the symbology was just being digitally transposed/overlaid on the tape.

I can imagine -200 was a step back....just looking through the -1, and seeing all the BUC procedures made me not envy anyone who flew that. From the old guys, it sounded like they could be a bit more temperamental when it came to operating limits and rapid throttle movements. I know a couple people who had compressor stalls in the -220, which was apparently quite violent, but I luckily never had such an experience. Seemed like a pretty honest motor, and fairly advanced for its time when compared to the hydro-mechanical fuel controls in the F404 that all my previous time was in.
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masterguns

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Unread post22 May 2018, 00:19

Roger that, killers. Bear with me a 25 miler for a moment. So, in layman's terms for this 30 year retired spec ops Marine bubba whose never flown an F-16 :salute: Pic 1 seems to be the consensus ref camera being forwar of the HUD (dombing Glass) & HUD placement? Although I've been an avid US Mil aviation enthusiast since I was about 5 y/o becasue my dad flew fast movers for the Corps for 30+ years, I don't know all the tech terms for an F-16 eperienced, maintentenanc type. Is HUD the proper tech term for most of the slanted glass the pilot looks through from which he/she ascertains most of the important flight data needed in a pinch of just a gunsight sighht'. What is that circular projecter lookig thing on top of the HUD housing doohikey where the HUD resTIA, ya'll of you warfghters a heart felt to you that can add you'an can off of y'all advance to me do you look forward to any assistance especilly when comes to a USAF base desfigned day/fighter (at that time) aircraft that was estsentilly navallism.

SEMPER FI,
Materguns
Scale Aviation Modelist and
Ground Operartion Chief (E-9), USMC (RET)
2nd Marine Raider Regtiment MCSOCOM
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jbgator

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Unread post22 May 2018, 01:21

Well Guns, I didn't follow you completely but then I haven't had my tot of rum yet. But I'll try to answer your questions as I think you asked them. :D

Most pilots refer to the slanted piece of glass as the HUD when in reality it is the whole unit. The piece of glass is called the combining glass. Below the combining glass is a round lens and a projector that projects the HUD symbology vertically into the glass. Because of the angle of the glass the pilot sees the symbology reflected there as he looks forward through the glass. In the original A model F-16 there was a video camera which stuck up into the pilot's field of view directly between him and the combining glass so it was looking through the HUD on the same sight line as he was, recording both the symbology and the view forward. Originally this was an old wet film (don't know the mm) that had a film pack that was inserted in the small rectangular box right behind the camera (when I say behind I mean towards the tail of the jet, in front of means towards the nose of the jet). By the time I flew the F-16 in 1982 this had been replaced by a Video Cassette Recorder (VCR) and you no longer put a film pack in the box, you put a 3/4 inch VCR tape in the recorder mounted under the left strake. So the entire Heads Up Display technically is the combining glass and the projector below it to include the controls for the unit which were located in front of the pilot directly below the camera. In the original A models (bulk 1-15) the whole thing was smaller than the one introduced in the C model. The C-model introduced a wider field of view in two ways. The combining glass and the projector (the round lens pointing upwards) were bigger and it was slightly closer to the pilot's face. This larger unit extended farther into the cockpit towards the pilots face and on the C model the input controls to interface with the jets computers were added to the HUD controls to create the Up Front Control (UFC) which combined the HUD control functions with the Fire Control and Navigation Computer (FCNP) functions that had been on a side panel next to the pilots left knee in the A model. Because this unit was larger and extended farther into the cockpit we were told they added the brace underneath to support it. As a result they moved the camera forward of the combining glass. Now, since it was not filming through the HUD, it did not record the HUD symbology, only the view forward. So they installed a system that superimposed the HUD symbology onto the VCR recording. There could be a little error in that process so with the C-model HUD and these unique A-models we did a camera alignment check where we recorded symbology on the ground and then noted any discrepancy on the tape when we got back to debrief. There were coefficients to input into the computer to make adjustments to fix these errors but they were never perfect. In the original A model this was not a problem. The Bulk 40 LANTIRN HUD was even bigger but the Bulk 50 had the same HUD as the Blk 25-30.

Hopefully in a long winded way I have answered what I think your question was.

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