F-35B Cost Benefit Analysis over AV-8B & F/A-18

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post10 May 2018, 01:32

I cannot speak from Harrier or any STOVL experience - however I have buddies who flew the A4G (me) and then because our RAN FAA Fixed Wing Folded in 1984 those young enough etc. went on to bigger and better things in other air arms and in the case of the Brits, to be SHAR (Sea Harrier) pilots. Some already had experience as exchange pilots in the Harrier in either the USMC or RN FAA beforehand (in the late 1970s the RAN FAA was anticipating going STOVL themselves - but no).

Anyway they have related how 'easy' it was to hover the Harrier and in some cases NOT (they were being typically boastful and polite at the same time - easy enough for a 3 handed HarrierHoveringPilote! :mrgreen: ). Their e-mail accounts to me along with some published material about the HarrierHoveringHazards, along with the Brits/USMC determination two decades ago to get the UNIFIED CONTROLS now evident in the F-35B via the VAAC test Harrier, speaks wonders as you say.

Back in May 2005 the first auto VAAC Harrier VL was carried out using test version of the UNIFIED CONTROLS that are used today as mentioned. Soon enough the F-35B via JPALS and Unified Controls will be auto VLing as one way to get onboard. At present they can automatically (using JPALS on LHAs so fitted) get to the hover position alongside their landing spot.

There is a bunch of information in this forum - look for UNIFIED CONTROLs for example. Here is one post with links to other posts here along with a PDF about such matters:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5525&p=383590&hilit=Unified+Control%2A#p383590

F-35+STOVLengine&FlightControlSystemPotPourriPP137.pdf 137 page PDF 10.8Mb is downloadable from this URL:

download/file.php?id=23780







Last edited by spazsinbad on 10 May 2018, 22:35, edited 2 times in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2210
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30

Unread post10 May 2018, 02:00

Harrier is not hard to hover; the challenge is deceleration from wing-borne flight thru the semi-jet-borne region, or from semi-jet (e.g. STO) to wing-borne. Handling qualities, sideslip, intake momentum drag, and RCS bandwidth all in-play along with procedural absolutes.

For most Harrier guys, the first thing they ever hovered was...a Harrier. Thus, the remembrance remains vivid in the memory. The reality is that if one comes from a couple years (or more) of fast jet experience -- whether it be the training command or the operational forces -- hovering is an unnatural act, mostly because one has to learn to fly with ones feet as well as ones hands. But hovering isnt even the half of it; see first paragraph above. ...Very busy, very awkward (at first), very demanding of ones full attention, and very unforgiving of certain errors.
Offline

kimjongnumbaun

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 236
  • Joined: 08 Dec 2016, 21:41

Unread post10 May 2018, 08:13

Link to the original article?
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post10 May 2018, 08:22

The original 'PRICE quote' (geddit?) is on the Aviationist Website but that site is NOT WORKING?! So go here:

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-F35-vertic ... ng-decades FOR.....:

https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/08/f ... ceptional/ HA the URL works now but not from Google? Computers - I give in.
Four of the most experienced USMC F-35B pilots speak about their aircraft. And they say it’s exceptional.
08 Dec 2016 Todd Miller

"...Put aside the politicians “it does not work!” the ideologues, the self-proclaimed experts and listen to the voice of the pilots. The pilots will take the aircraft into combat, their own lives in the balance...

...The Aviationist and a handful of journalists recently had the opportunity to visit with four such pilots during a “Proof of Concept” demonstration on the USS America, Nov. 19, 2016. The four pilots are some of the most experienced F-35B pilots in the United States Marine Corps (USMC) and their previous experience provides valuable context to their statements.
• George “Sack” Rowell, Commanding Officer (CO) of VMX-1 (Marine Operational Test & Evaluation Squadron). Prior to the F-35, Rowell spent appx. 3000 hours over 18 years of flying the F/A-18 Hornet. Previously the CO of VMFA(AW)-533
• Col. Chad “Mo” Vaughn, CO of VMFA-211. Prior to the F-35, Vaughn spent a couple 1000 hrs over 13 years in the F/A-18A-D Hornet, as well as time in the F-16A-B Fighting Falcon/Viper and F/A-18 Super Hornet at NAS Fallon.
• Col. Rich “BC” Rusnok, slated to become the CO of VMFA-121 in March 2017. Prior to the F-35, Price spent appx. 7 years flying the AV-8B Harrier II with additional time in the F/A-18 Hornet.
• Col. John “Guts” Price, slated CO for VFMA-122 (2018). Prior to the F-35, Price spent appx. 1200 hrs and 10 years flying the AV-8B Harrier II, and has about 400 hrs in the F-35 over the past 3 years.


The pilots provide unique insights, a different perspective on the F-35 and its unique capabilities. The comments have been edited for readability with best efforts made to maintain context and integrity of intent.... [Then Bunch O'quotes]

...The voice of the pilots is clear – the platform is working exceptionally. The F-35 is a platform with the ultimate level of sophistication, made simple. And therein lay the beauty of the F-35, and just why it will be so deadly, it’s simple. This article is but a small excerpt of the complete pilots discussion of our contributors full article found at The Second Line of Defense here: http://www.sldinfo.com/the-moment-pilot ... aordinary/
[now that SLDinfo URL does not work - probably part of it is on this forum somewhere..... ]

SEARCH F-35 forum using Rowell OR MILLER for stuff of quotes quotable. I'm having a great internet day - the URL works now: https://sldinfo.com/2016/12/the-moment- ... aordinary/

Source: https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/08/f ... ceptional/

The Moment Pilots First Realized the F-35 was Something Extraordinary
16 Dec 2016 Todd Miller

Then a lot of single sentence paragraphs which I'm NOT going to read right now because my eyes hurt....

Source: https://sldinfo.com/2016/12/the-moment- ... aordinary/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1828
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post10 May 2018, 17:45

lrrpf52 wrote:Maybe the policy has been to let negative press percolate rabidly, while pulling all the respective Congressrats and MPs aside behind closed doors and telling them that's part of the information warfare posture of the program.


The thought has crossed my mind that perhaps that "leaked" "F-35 can't beat an F-16 in a dogfight" test report was deliberate -- to make the opposition think the F-35 has serious issues and they don't need to do anything. Now they are finding out differently. But perhaps a deliberate leak bought the program 2-3 years of "hesitation" on the part of the oppo? Why do I think this? Partly because of the writing style and the format of the "leaked report" and partly because of the question: what test pilot in his right mind would leak something like this "report?" especially since the test pilot would know it was not a "dogfight" with an F-16D, but a CLAW test.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post10 May 2018, 22:31

The gloves were off for the Paris Air Show F-35A demo then USN then USAF started to deliberately limit information about themselves, including the F-35 family. Swings and roundabouts - conspiracies or just incompetence - we can see the genpop are just amazingly ignorant; but so am I in a lot of respects - I just don't advertise that ignorance on the WWW.

The idea that an enemy is fooled by the WWW that it manipulates is not credible - things happen deliberately or not.

Then there is clickbaiting. For example a very recent story (once limited but now public) about USAF T-6 OBOGS from AvWEAK: http://aviationweek.com/defense/us-air- ... tting-sick has at the end links to 'RELATED' articles. The first one is this: Controversy Flares Over F-35 Air Combat Report 02 Jul 2015 written by BillyBobBoySweetiePie hisself. Now what does that article have to do with the aforementioned? NADA and one could look at the 334 comments but 'who cares that much' http://aviationweek.com/defense/controv ... bat-report

There are many players in the infowarFAIR - some youse buy and some youse don't - but don't get hettup about it.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post13 May 2018, 02:34

A Brit Former Harrier now F-35B Test Pilot from a few years back tells us something about ease of VLing F-35B Day/Night.

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post14 May 2018, 16:56

You seem to reiterate insights that have been on this forum for years. That graphic of ships at sea is in the long HMDS thread for example with pilots raving about now being able to see the horizon on a dark night at sea (beware green glow).
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post16 May 2018, 01:41

Did not mean to be rude - just direct. Yes this is a large forum with a zillion posts about the F-35 and you have probably not read it all. My interest started at joining date seen under my ICON. Before that I had no interest because CRABS. Then realized that F-35Bs may one day be onboard our RAN LHDs - even if they are not our own and just cross decking. So there was a bit of catching up to do here. While probably I've not read every post before the date mentioned I've come across relevant ones during 'searching/cross checking' various words/terms over the years. All posts since that time I've read and I do not claim to remember them all however SEARCH is a great function on this forum. I COULD search out various terms such as SAFETY but having been a pilot myself long long ago in the fixed wing jet era of the Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm flying Vampires, Sea Venoms (but on last legs & not onboard HMAS Melbourne), Macchi MB326Hs and the A4G Skyhawk, my interest has been mainly in NavAv; because I have no experience flying jets with HUDs - Air to Air Radars - Guided Munitions - Gyro Gunsights (the Venoms had gunsights removed whilst I missed out flying Macchis with Gyro Gunsights which were being installed just as I left flying with RAN FAA mid 1974 - getting out mid 1975 from a desk job).

I hope I can explain any questions you may have about Naval Aviation and all the good stuff exhibited by the F-35B/C models in that regard. NavAv really interests me and probably I can hear the groans already - if you follow the URLs at the bottom of this post you will see more than enough about this interest of mine. Safety is a big concern for the program with obvious evidence that the program has done well - despite critics wanting the F-35 to do more (I'm guessing that these nonces want to see more accidents etc.).

There is at least one pilot post where he describes seeing all the traffic when returning to base (I think from first flight) with him not needing Air Traffic Control to give 'traffic'. As mentioned: seeing the horizon at night at sea is TERRIFIC!
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

blindpilot

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1170
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2013, 18:21
  • Location: Colorado

Unread post16 May 2018, 04:57

spazsinbad wrote:Did not mean to be rude - just direct. Yes this is a large forum with a zillion posts about the F-35 and you have probably not read it all. ....
There is at least one pilot post where he describes seeing all the traffic when returning to base (I think from first flight) with him not needing Air Traffic Control to give 'traffic'. As mentioned: seeing the horizon at night at sea is TERRIFIC!


lrrpf52 Welcome to the forum. Don't be too concerned about occasionally posting a point that already exist here. Most times someone, often spaz, will usually help by linking to the thread so you can see comments around that topic. I used to Google daily a quick "f-35" check as I read the news of the day, until I started getting so many links here that ... well frankly I just check here for years now, and I don't target Google anymore. I just come here and stay up to speed.

One beauty of this forum is that we have lotsa folks with real experience in being AF/Navy/Marine/lotsa countries' pilots/mechanics of everything from ancient 1950's jets to F-22 and forward. We have program managers from $billion programs, actual aeronautical engineers, political types, and even engine guys ... (hey has anyone seen TEG lately there was a post I thought he could help with) ... young folks and old ... This is a place of actual experts in their fields. Been there, done that folks.

As to the pilot posting his first view of "F-35 wonderland," I know there is one on the Israeli thread where they noted they turned it on and saw the entire Middle East situation, including airline flights, from Turkey to Jordan, from Egypt to Iraq unfold right before them. That is a good read.

FWIW,
BP

Link added - http://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/ ... m-1.808556
from viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&start=120

"We already see what this plane has. Not everything is perfect. There are things you learn along the way. That’s been the case with every plane we acquired. But when you take off in this plane from Nevatim [base], you can’t believe it. At 5,000 feet, the whole Middle East is there for you in the cockpit. You see things, it’s inconceivable. American pilots who visit us haven’t seen anything like it, because they fly over Arizona or Florida, and here they suddenly see the [entire] Middle East as a combat zone – the threats, the different players, at both close range and long range. Only then do you grasp the enormous potential of this machine. We’re already seeing it with our eyes.”
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post16 May 2018, 06:37

Thanks 'BP' and to get folks up to speed on the olden daze of the Fixed Wing RAN FAA - here 'tis.... Some following the 'Grippen' thread about RW 26 at NAS Nowra will see a few shots including the 'head on' clip of an A4G taking off on that runway downhill from the perspective of the threshold of RW 08. We would not ordinarily carry out this low style - it was done for a movie/video when the FIXED WING was FOLDING in c.1984 <sob> There's a TA4G arrest on RW 26 from the side.

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

juretrn

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 01:09
  • Location: Slovenia

Unread post16 May 2018, 18:41

A good reason ( one of) why there F-35 is as safe as it is: there's a great video report on the B version where they stuck the reporter into a sim and he was able to land on his own- vertically- in about 10 minutes of coaching. Basically flies itself.
Russia stronk
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21913
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post16 May 2018, 19:06

Is that the fourth video in the list of FOUR on previous page? Replicated below.

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

juretrn

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 367
  • Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 01:09
  • Location: Slovenia

Unread post16 May 2018, 20:51


:oops:
Last edited by juretrn on 17 May 2018, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
Russia stronk
Offline

johnwill

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2054
  • Joined: 24 Mar 2007, 21:06
  • Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Unread post16 May 2018, 23:12

lrrpf52 wrote:The thing with the AFTI F-16 was that I watched very closely its different evolutions and the various test programs they did with it, thinking that the things they were tackling bordered on everything from the practical to fairly ambitious.

To see them actually end up in the F-16 and the F-35 over the course of my life is quite satisfying really, as I never made the connection until looking more closely at the F-35. I started out as an F-35 skeptic, but needing more info before forming an opinion. The more I see, the more I'm amazed really.


Significant things you did not mention from AFTI that went into F-35 are the electro-hydraulic flight control surface actuators and control laws specifically shaped to limit structural loads. Structures team analyzed the early AFTI test results, where loads did exceed limit a few times, and derived new control laws to prevent it. F-35 uses similar technology.
Next

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests