The Turkey problem

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spazsinbad

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Unread post14 May 2019, 01:32

Israel makes a black box for their API and I believe their ADIRs will be manufactured especially for it (not first examples).
Two page ADIR PDF with article excerpt here: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&p=360880&hilit=Adir+interface#p360880

F-35i ADIR Israel Flight International 24-30 Jan 2017 pp2 .pdf (1.55Mb) download/file.php?id=24124

ALSO ADIR interface: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30787&p=321972&hilit=Adir+interface#p321972
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Original post below is here: search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=mission+data+files&fid%5B%5D=65&ch=-1
EGLIN ACTIVATES F-35 PARTNER SUPPORT COMPLEX
12 May 2016 JPO PR

"EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. (AFNS) -- The 53rd Wing activated on May 11 the F-35 Partner Support Complex, a U.S.-owned facility here that handles F-35 Lightning II testing. Robert Kraus assumed the new position as the complex’s director, making it the first civilian-led unit in the wing. Kraus, a retired lieutenant colonel, served as the 68th Electronic Warfare Squadron commander and 53rd Electronic Warfare Group deputy commander at Eglin Air Force Base prior to this new position.

The F-35 PSC is charged with providing mission data, intelligence support, lab facilities and training to the eight partner countries purchasing the fifth-generation aircraft.

"The growth of the PSC will relieve that pressure, as well as ensure our coalition partners are ready to participate in any future operations," Kraus said. The partner countries include: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Norway, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Turkey. These countries provided critical design input and funding during the early stages of the F-35 program, which differs from foreign military sales customers. "The PSC will directly support the partners, who currently have no indigenous capability to create mission data for the F-35," Kraus said.

The complex will interact with mission data programmers and data analysts from the partner nations. According to Kraus, one of the key projects for the unit is to support the partners in the creation of two separate hardware in the loop testing facilities -- only one currently exists. The F-35 PSC started as a small team within the 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron at Eglin AFB, which provides F-35 mission data files to the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps. The team staffs 24 civilian employees and contractors, with plans to grow to about 100 personnel. The new unit will report to the 53rd EWG.

While the mission of the complex has been ongoing for nearly five years, Kraus sees the formalization of the unit as a step forward. "The formal activation of the unit will give me a greater ability to support the partners in their efforts," he said. "(I can now) elevate the partner support functions to an equal level with U.S. squadrons, as opposed to a subordinate role."

Plans are in the works for two separate buildings to hold the new unit and partner nation personnel. This includes the Australia/Canada/United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory [ACURL] building and the Norway/Italy Reprogramming Laboratory building. Additional support will be provided to Denmark, the Netherlands and Turkey."

Source: http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20160512_Complex.pdf (130Kb)
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madrat

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Unread post14 May 2019, 12:19

The new training squadron and this smaller acquisition offsets the bomb range assets moving to Utah and the loss of F-22A. Kind of a break even, not much to consider a gain.
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loke

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Unread post14 May 2019, 19:41

polarbear wrote:Thanks for the kind responses to my post. I am more of a lurker than a poster, and english is not my primary language so thanks again for the opportunity and practice.

At the time F-35 project started, Turkish-US relations were not strained as they are today. Through patience, show of goodwill, honest cooperation and sharing of knowledge, we thought we could influence US to a course of action to avoid the bloodshed and chaos reigning today in middle east. Foolish and naive thinking on our behalf as it turned out to be. Will Turkey enter a similar project today? Not likely i think, but necessity is known to create strange bedfellows...

"Deserving" the code is irrelevant; either we have it or the system -whatever it is- is not bought anymore. I will tell the underlying story how it come to be: The sole F-16 shot down in an air to air action is a turkish f-16 killed by a greek mirage. Officially sterilized details of the incident is on wikipedia, the bitter truth uncovered at the end of inquiry is pilot was not warned of the threat and countermeasures were not deployed becouse the system classified the killer as ally and did not recognize launched missile as threat. Source codes requested for examination and guess what: Requests refused. Repeatedly. Armywide inquiry revealed stingers and several naval systems and radars suffering from a similar "bug". You can imagine the outrage among the troops. Most of these systems could not be taken offline so they are used as is until havelsan and aselsan purged their defects. Adding insult to the injury, greeks did not seem to be affected by the same "bug". Some of the pilots who flew patrols over aegean, knowing that a greek murderer could sneak upon them anytime undetected becouse US government wanted it so, became generals and leading TuAF now. They had seen the face of reaper, survived and will have a merry time with US diplomats trying to convince them in July.

Fikret Bila is a distinguished reporter and columnist who wrote in Milliyet when it used to be a reputable newspaper. -Before the rookie sultan had it bought and turned into a tabloid-. He is known as unofficial voice of GHQ; when GHQ wants a matter known to public without causing an international incident, he is the guy who comes up with a "fictional" story. Unlike Aslı and Nagehan, this guy is honest to the bone and his integrity is impeccable. My second source is wikipedia. For all the systems I mentioned - AH-1Z, M1 MBT, Javelin, M227 MLRS ... -among the references you will see an article with a similiar pattern. The system proves itself on the field of battle, Turkish army is interested in acquiring the system, system is tested and shortlisted. Then voila, some US diplomat visits. After a while although technically everything is going on fine, the need is urgent and money available; project is silently shelved with no apparent reason. Call it a hunch on which i am willing to bet my last 2 cents.

Do you have sources for your F-16 story?

Are you suggesting that 'one of the main reasons Turkey prefer S-400 to Patriot is that they believe they cannot be given full access to the Patriot system and therefore may not be able to shoot down e.g., Greek fighter jets or Greek missiles using the Patriot in a potential conflict?
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pron

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Unread post14 May 2019, 21:26

loke wrote:Do you have sources for your F-16 story?

Are you suggesting that 'one of the main reasons Turkey prefer S-400 to Patriot is that they believe they cannot be given full access to the Patriot system and therefore may not be able to shoot down e.g., Greek fighter jets or Greek missiles using the Patriot in a potential conflict?

I guess it on this listing.
https://theaviationist.com/2015/12/30/a ... -dogfight/
In Oct. 1996, a HAF Mirage 2000 fired an R.550 Magic II and shot down a Turkish F-16D that had violated the Greek airspace.

When you read that article it's not the planes or the rockets that are the problem.
And the "things" polarbear list are just like any other conspiracy theory that lives so good in that part of the world.
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lbk000

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Unread post14 May 2019, 22:52

Less conspiracy and more spin. Of course they are going to be self-protective of their interests.

It's real simple when it comes down to it though: you don't refuse to kiss the ring and then ask for favors.
There are no free rides in this world, but the US at least offers reacharounds.
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loke

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Unread post15 May 2019, 11:41

ANKARA, May 15 (Reuters) - Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday Turkey is discussing with the United States details of a working group Ankara has proposed setting up to look into the impact of its purchase of Russian S-400 missile defence systems.

Tensions have risen between Turkey and the United States over Ankara's decision to buy the S-400s, which are not compatible with NATO systems.

Cavusoglu said that stopping or postponing the delivery of the S-400s is not on the agenda. (Reporting by Ece Toksabay; Writing by Sarah Dadouch Editing by Dominic Evans)

http://news.trust.org//item/20190515101636-505f5/
The U.S. has asked Turkey to postpone taking delivery of the Russian S-400 air defense systems until 2020, Reuters news agency reported. Speaking to the agency, a top-level Turkish official said, "We are going to receive the S-400s in July. Our position has not changed.

https://www.yenisafak.com/en/columns/me ... es-2047042

A US House of Representatives committee on Tuesday released an early version of a spending bill that seeks to prevent the shipment of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey, as US officials press Turkey not to buy a Russian S-400 air defense system.


https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Early ... key-589710
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polarbear

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Unread post15 May 2019, 21:39

loke wrote:When you read that article it's not the planes or the rockets that are the problem.
And the "things" polarbear list are just like any other conspiracy theory that lives so good in that part of the world.


I am truly disappointed by this. For example search wiki for turkish made MLRS systems -TOROS 230/260, Yıldırım etc- artillery system and you will find the root of these projects at the embargo of guided munitions for M270 systems sold to turkey. We reverse engineered and rebuild the munition first, then the vehicle, after that loader came. Artillery radar and c&c complex followed soon. So no consipracy theory here but pure truth. Another example is AH-1Z procurement and ATAK project. Just search Richard Perle's reports on this subject and you will find him smugly describing how the deal went down under the guise of "human rights" and "loss of american jobs". Accounting for the others, product catalogs of roketsan, aselsan and tai are online. Browse through them and similarities with existing US equipment are more than obvious. Please be careful and sure before implying "overimaginative storytelling", it hurts the other ones feelings and pride if you are mistaken.

Now back to the forum topic:

madrat wrote:Are you suggesting that 'one of the main reasons Turkey prefer S-400 to Patriot is that they believe they cannot be given full access to the Patriot system and therefore may not be able to shoot down e.g., Greek fighter jets or Greek missiles using the Patriot in a potential conflict?


It sure has an impact but i don't think it is the decisive one. S-400 procurement is proceeding in a strange manner. Russians stated S-400 is a complex; without its mid and short range subsysems, it will not be effective. Yet only long range subsystem is procured and will be installed as soon as possible (fact). - "overimaginative storytelling" mode on - It seems army is more interested in radar and sensors than the missile. why? AN/TPY-2 at kürecik is already covering the area, and it is one on the best if not the best. I suppose they have reasons to believe that radar either does not see everything in its mission space, or does not report everything it detects. Couple this with US saberrattling on iran, US and israeli F-35 deployments and israeli disregard for turkish airspace; it is only natural to want an alternative air control and detection system independent of existing one. Patriot simply does not fit into this mission profile as it is considered as an already compromised system. - "overimaginative storytelling" mode off -.Turkey experienced both extreme discomfort of being dragged into a world war by letting foreigners running rampant on its soil and seas; and extreme comfort of staying out of a world war by denying usage of turkish territories and seas for military purposes. We simply do not want to fight with any of our neighbours.It is already a difficult place to live in and a war will not make things any better.
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loke

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Unread post16 May 2019, 19:08

Polarbear, please check your quotes, I did not make the statements above that you attributed to me ( your other quote however seems to belong to me)

As for your claims -- they sound dubious to me, to be honest. However I am no expert in this matter field and I hope that other forum members that are more informed can comment...
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Unread post16 May 2019, 19:15

You are right loke and i stand corrected. Rookie poster mistake. I am sorry.

As for the s-400 comment, having re-read it, it sounds dubious to me too but i can not come with a better explanation. Maybe rookie sultan wants to be kicked off from F-35 project to boost his meager popularity. Since december, turkey has experienced a traumatic election process; sultan employed every dirty trick in the book to win; still lost and coerced high court to make a decision to repeat part of the election he has lost, in june 2019. It was the worst election of turkish democracy and his popularity is going downhill since then.
Last edited by polarbear on 16 May 2019, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.
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botsing

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Unread post16 May 2019, 19:38

polarbear is just one of the many propaganda trolls that visit this site. Like the usual bunch he brings along a few "sensible" conspiracy theories that sounds good enough in their part of the world.

After questioning his posts we will we get the usual evading responses and more propaganda, just put him on your ignore list.


As for Turkey and the F-35/S-400: It's best to think about the future and a time when there is no more Erdogan, when that happens it's best the Turks find a smooth ride back to the west.

This means it's a delicate diplomatic mission for the USA where it does not want to anger the divided Turkish population while at the same it wants to prevent Erdogan's destructive decisions.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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loke

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Unread post16 May 2019, 20:15

Turkish officials have once again refuted the United States’ claims that the deployment of Russian S-400 air defense systems on the Turkish soils together with the U.S. F-35 aircraft would create a security breach. They repeated their calls for setting up a joint committee to analyze both sides’ technical views regarding the matter.
“If these claims by the U.S. were true, S-400s would have already accessed [secrets] to the F-35 technology (as both are deployed) in Syria, the Baltic region and in the north. Because there are S-400s in Syria under the full control of Russia. The U.S. and Israeli F-35s are flying around them,” Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told reporters in Riga at a joint press conference with Latvian counterpart Edgards Rinkevics on May 16.
He also recalled that Norway has F-35s with the Russian S-400s stationed right on the other side of the Norwegian-Russian border.
“If these claims were true, they should have already been verified,” he said.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-cla ... glu-143485

Turkey is not budging-- how stupid can they be? Russia has repeatedly declared NATO to be "the enemy". How on earth can Turkey, as a NATO country (and F-35 partner) purchase a strategic system like S-400 from "the enemy"?

This argument alone should be enough for Turkey to immediately drop S-400; F-35 purchase or not.

I am starting to get the feeling that Turkey may drop out of both the F-35 program but also, longer term, NATO. Sad for NATO, but even more sad for Turkey, which more and more starts to look like a lost cause.

The CAATSA is crystal clear about imposing sanctions on countries engaging in business with Moscow in defence or intelligence sectors, said Eric Edelman, former U.S. ambassador to Turkey and chairman of the Turkey program at Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), and Jonathan Schanzer, senior vice president for research at the FDD, wrote on Wednesday for WSJ.
U.S. officials say Turkey’s use of the Russian S-400 system alongside U.S.-made F-35 jets, which Ankara is also purchasing, would create an unacceptable risk as its radar could enable the Russian military to gain insight into F-35 operations.
“This would threaten the U.S. military’s already diminishing qualitative advantage,” said Edelman and Schanzer. In addition to inviting congressionally mandated sanctions, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan also risks expulsion from the F-35 program due to his decision to acquire the S-400 systems.
Last month, the Pentagon halted the delivery of F-35 training equipment and related materials. Some argue that these measures against Turkey are a mistake, as Turkey is a key NATO ally that could be pushed toward Russia or even Iran, said Edelman and Schanzer.
“Yet Turkey has been outside the NATO tent for a decade now. It is the largest external headquarters for the terrorist group Hamas in the Middle East. It has supported the worst jihadist actors in the Syrian civil war, including some linked to al-Qaeda and Islamic State,” said Edelman and Schanzer, also citing Turkey’s $20 billion sanctions-evasion scheme with Iran from 2012-2015 and the country’s descent into authoritarianism.
U.S. officials have shown great patience, but now is the time for a change, according to the analysts.
“Mr. Trump lambastes allies who fail to pull their weight. Turkey tops that list, relying on U.S. beneficence while undermining U.S. interests,” said Edelman and Schanzer. “Instead of coddling Mr. Erdoğan, the administration must force Turkey to decide whether it remains a part of the Western alliance in fact or in name only.”


https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-russia/tru ... 0-analysis
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marsavian

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Unread post16 May 2019, 20:32

The Turkey/NATO relationship is one which was always based on mutual transaction benefit not shared values. Once the transactions don't make sense there will be a mutual natural parting of the ways, it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
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loke

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Unread post16 May 2019, 22:14

It is a big deal -- Turkey has a very strategic location, and the second biggest army in NATO. If they really leave NATO, I would not be surprised if they would obtain nukes -- this would force Saudi Arabia to obtain nukes, and would create an even more dangerous situation.
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Unread post18 May 2019, 01:08

loke wrote:It is a big deal -- Turkey has a very strategic location, and the second biggest army in NATO. If they really leave NATO, I would not be surprised if they would obtain nukes -- this would force Saudi Arabia to obtain nukes, and would create an even more dangerous situation.


Maybe Turkey should stay in NATO and we should leave? Unfortunately there is nothing that the US can do to reverse the fundamental issues dividing the US from Turkey in the near term. Turkey is a security risk. Would you sell the F-35 to Pakistan?
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Unread post18 May 2019, 10:00

Time to Pull US Nuclear Weapons Out of Turkey
17 May 2019 Harvey M. Sapolsky

"Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea, and giving Ankara a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm.

Amid the recent self-congratulatory celebrations of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s 70th anniversary, there was no mention one of its strangest policies: the nuclear sharing program that keeps American nuclear bombs in five NATO countries (Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Turkey) and trains host air forces to use them. Thus at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, about 100 miles from the Syrian border, the United States stores some 20 to 80 B61 nuclear weapons for delivery by Turkish or American aircraft. There is not much comfort in knowing that these weapons are under direct American control in heavily guarded bunkers and are designed to be unusable without the proper codes. It is time to bring them home.

American-Turkish relations are not good and are likely to turn worse....

...Complicating the relations are Turkey’s attempts to acquire Russian military technology, most notably the S-400 air defense system, while remaining part of United States’ F-35 stealth fighter program. Turkey is an industrial partner in the F-35 program and is scheduled to purchase 100 of the aircraft. The first of Turkey’s F-35s are ready for delivery. But Turkey is also scheduled to receive soon the first components of the Russian S-400 system it has purchased, which American military officials have said is incompatible with Turkish possession of the F-35; The fear is that details of the fighter’s stealth features and performance will be revealed to the Russians who will help maintain the S-400....

...The United States is currently updating the bombs and has designated the F-35 as the replacement aircraft for the F-16, the delivery aircraft for the NATO partners (except for Germany and Italy, which use the Tornado). Some are having second thoughts about hosting the weapons or replacing the aircraft. The Parliament in the Netherlands has expressed doubts, as have members of the governing coalition in Germany. Nuclear weapons aren’t the temptation they once were for Europeans. Turkey, which is the bridge to the Middle East, is silent on the subject.

Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea. Giving Turkey a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm especially as Turkey flirts with Russia and has growing grievances with the United States. Let’s end NATO’s nuclear-sharing program, beginning with the nuclear weapons at Incirlik."

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/0 ... ey/157101/
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