F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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markithere

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Unread post10 May 2017, 18:16

We keep reading how the legacy cross over pilots/instructors can't wait to get the fighter in the hands of new pilots to see them create new unthought of tactics. Well here is a space to list whatever you can come up with that might be possible with the F-35.

For psychological effects a pilot could have the plane "spoofing a number like cell phones today do" call the intended target using their phone system and announce how their buddy just down the street is going to end and that you are next. This moves the military target to a land line and you could record the voice for proof of success and know exactly where he is standing.

You could use the plane to tap into load speakers at a facility and instruct people to assemble to make use of one bomb or to clear an area for the bomb.

For video cameras attached to network systems at target facility you can hack into them and show live video of the incoming bomb to the leader of that country showing him how over matched he is and should bend to diplomatic resolutions. For what that is worth show him his baby monitor as a live feed.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post10 May 2017, 18:50

Given that the F-35's EODAS provides YATO (You Are The One, which tells a pilot if a missile is headed towards them), that the APG-81 AESA has a very tight beam with little leakage, and that "Cooperative EW" is in the works for early FOM integration.... I see a Jamming mode where F-35s will actively jam inbound missiles that are not aimed at them so the missile wastes maneuver energy using HOJ to chase a jammer that is outside of it's engagement capability.
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markithere

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Unread post10 May 2017, 19:07

You could use the DAS system from two planes flying in formation to create a stereoscopic image of the surrounding area. At the same time increase the resolution capability to twice what is achieved by a single plane. Similar to cameras that take and stitch together multiple images to create a super hires image. Doing this will increase what is possible with more than one plane. Google superresolution photos with photoshop for more on this.b

Like this

http://gigapan.com/gigapans/6790
Last edited by markithere on 10 May 2017, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
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steve2267

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Unread post10 May 2017, 19:56

Man, I just want a real, live disappear switch. Maybe a retractable Ronseburg lense. Something that could make me appear to be a flight of F-16's (or SHornets or Eagles). Then hit my disappear switch to f*ck with the enema's heads. Could possibly screw with their tactical disposition.

But a real disappear switch would be uber cool, me thinks.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post10 May 2017, 21:30

steve2267 wrote:Man, I just want a real, live disappear switch. Maybe a retractable Ronseburg lense. Something that could make me appear to be a flight of F-16's (or SHornets or Eagles). Then hit my disappear switch to f*ck with the enema's heads. Could possibly screw with their tactical disposition.

But a real disappear switch would be uber cool, me thinks.



They are working on that do for the F-35 Mark 2. Initial lab trials are quite promising.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post11 May 2017, 10:54

steve2267 wrote:Man, I just want a real, live disappear switch. Maybe a retractable Ronseburg lense. Something that could make me appear to be a flight of F-16's (or SHornets or Eagles). Then hit my disappear switch to f*ck with the enema's heads. Could possibly screw with their tactical disposition.


I think the same could be achieved electronically. Basically use the EW capabilties of F-35s to create false targets to enemy radars while keeping the actual aircraft fully stealthy. That would be much safer and one F-35 could create large number of false targets making things much more difficult to enemy. Given the very narrow beamwidth and low sidelobes of AN/APG-81 along with the very low power levels required, it would be very difficult to tell if it was made by deceptive jamming or if the radar contacts are real aircraft.
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Unread post11 May 2017, 12:07

I think the combination of VLO stealth, sensors, sensor fusion, CNI system and EW capability in F-35 really call for swarming tactics as they have the tools to coordinate and synchronize with each other almost instatly. F-35s can and do fly very widely separated from each other and can quickly mass where needed and disperse quickly, This makes it much more difficult for enemy to counter them as they are everywhere and nowhere at the same time. This means enemy that finds one F-35 has to be very, very worried about all those F-35s (and F-22s) that he doesn't see and doesn't have faintest idea how many or where they might be.
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Unread post11 May 2017, 14:31

That recent article in BusinessInsider:

An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy
by Alex Lockie May 4, 2017[/size]

Retired US Marine Corps Maj. Dan Flatley will never forget the crushing feeling of helplessness he felt the first time he faced a stealth jet while he was flying in an F/A-18.

"I remember indelibly the moment in which the AWAC (airborne early warning and control plane) called out to me that there was a Raptor [an F-22 stealth fighter] in front of me at very close range that made me uncomfortable," Flatley told Business Insider in a phone interview.

"I had no way of targeting him, no way of defending myself."

...

"What the public doesn’t realize is how dominant the difference in information is," said Flatley. While the F-35 performs similarly to legacy jets in some areas like speed, turning, and range, there's a huge, ever-growing information gap between what the F-35 pilot sees and what an F-18 pilot sees.

...

The distinct information disadvantage causes pilots to get tunnel vision, according to Flatley.

"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there," said Flatley. "Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle."

The fear and paranoia caused by the presence of stealth jets in a battle has a widespread effect on adversaries that "includes extremely capable legacy jets and certainly includes everything available to adversaries," said Flatley of updated F-16s, F-15s, and even enemy air defenses like Russia's S-400.

...

Even extremely capable operators fall prey to the F-35's psychological advantage. "It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They’re at such a technological disadvantage," said Flatley. "I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there."

In the end, "It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we’re doing in the air," said Flatley. "People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

http://www.businessinsider.com/psychological-effect-f-35-stealth-legacy-fighter-2017-5


The disappear switch would play on this fear and paranoia. Give the enema a whiff of where you are, but you aren't there... Make them see a package of F-16's over there, and a separate package of F-18's over here... but then let the fade away, or not. Engage "flicker mode" where you let them think they've detected (!) an F-35 somewhere else... just enough to give them a taste. Play with their minds. Totally get inside their OODA loop (individual and collective) and have a party.

Is MALD-J stealthy? A stealthy, internally carried MALD-J that you could use to "seed" the battlespace and exacerbate this effect could leverage the number of F-35's. Especially if you could carry on the same sort of EW games with it, and not simply jam.

I like the idea of a disappear switch, but perhaps it should be called a f**k with their mind switch or just the mindgames switch.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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Unread post12 May 2017, 14:15

If it really can make false targets appear on the enemy's radar, that's huge. The Russians (or whoever) are going to expend a lot of ordinance chasing ghosts. The F-35 will lay in wait, likely until the enemy is out of AAM's.

Air combat sure is changing. I wonder if Russia, China etc will be able to follow suite. This is one of those change or die moments in life. All the supermaneuverability in the world isn't going to save them...
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Unread post12 May 2017, 17:36

As I understand it this was done by dedicated jamming assets back in 1991.
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Unread post12 May 2017, 18:25

mixelflick wrote:If it really can make false targets appear on the enemy's radar, that's huge. The Russians (or whoever) are going to expend a lot of ordinance chasing ghosts. The F-35 will lay in wait, likely until the enemy is out of AAM's.

Air combat sure is changing. I wonder if Russia, China etc will be able to follow suite. This is one of those change or die moments in life. All the supermaneuverability in the world isn't going to save them...

Makes you wonder if they'd be willing to fire those big, expensive S-400 missiles at distant ghosts that may or may not be stealth aircraft.
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Unread post12 May 2017, 18:57

If you can create fake aircraft radar signals, could you entice the enemy to fire long range missiles at a fake AWACS or fake tanker? also i have read about consideration of using b-52's as missile trucks- you could perhaps create a fake b-52 missile truck. Could you simulate a fake AAM or SAM launch? Or could you spoof the enemy to shoot down his own wing-man by making it look like one of ours on radar? Or create fake radio communication signals to simulate another flight approaching from a different direction. Or spoof his SAMS to fire on his own aircraft. Lots of possibilities.
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Unread post13 May 2017, 00:55

glennwhitten wrote:If you can create fake aircraft radar signals, could you entice the enemy to fire long range missiles at a fake AWACS or fake tanker? also i have read about consideration of using b-52's as missile trucks- you could perhaps create a fake b-52 missile truck. Could you simulate a fake AAM or SAM launch? Or could you spoof the enemy to shoot down his own wing-man by making it look like one of ours on radar? Or create fake radio communication signals to simulate another flight approaching from a different direction. Or spoof his SAMS to fire on his own aircraft. Lots of possibilities.

For the most part, the radar ghosts have to be on the same line of sight as the aircraft doing the spoofing (though there is apparently something that can be done with side lobes), and it's hard to make one closer to the radar than the spoofer (maybe impossible against AESA). Faking a big target like a BUFF or AWACS is probably doable, but you would practically have to be hacking the radar's operating system to make it see a friendly as you.
On the other hand, if intel has aquired their IFF codes for you, there are some interesting possibilities.
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Unread post13 May 2017, 15:03

Anyone remember the quail drone the B-52 carried? This would be the electronic version of that, yes?

The SU-35's PESA and PAK FA's AESA better be pretty good at spotting the real deal vs. ghosts. Last I read, the PAK FA was only going to carry 4 longer range AAM's plus 2 Archer's. That brings their shot total down to 6. Likewise the SU-35 could load up with a 12 AAM loadout, but if they're firing salvo's of 4 missile's apiece, they're down to 3 attempts.

Of course, I'm guessing the Russians/Chinese are working on this too. That makes the meager 2-4 AAM loadout the F-35 carries concerning. However, then we get back to arsenal planes/F-18's and 15's loaded with AMRAAM's. I dunno about the Russians/Chinese. What I do know, is that this kind of SA is being constantly honed/perfected NOW in the US and with our allies.

Until the Russians get the PAK FA in larger numbers, they'll have no 5th gen capability to work with. Best they can do is send wave after wave of Flankers up. That means they're playing the numbers game, and they no longer hold a 3-1 (or more) advantage.

There will be literally thousands of F-35's produced. Looking at the decision to go full steam ahead with the F-35, it makes more sense now. Had we produced 300-600 F-22's, that would be the US only. F-35's are poised to be like Hornets are today.

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Unread post13 May 2017, 16:50

count_to_10 wrote:
glennwhitten wrote:If you can create fake aircraft radar signals, could you entice the enemy to fire long range missiles at a fake AWACS or fake tanker? also i have read about consideration of using b-52's as missile trucks- you could perhaps create a fake b-52 missile truck. Could you .... Lots of possibilities.

... Faking a big target like a BUFF or AWACS is probably doable, but you would practically have to be hacking the radar's operating system to make it see a friendly as you.
....


Not really the thread for it, but the conversation is making a major point very clear ... even if the "Wonder Woman miracle" of stealth is totally overcome at some future date ... "V"LO Stealth continues to be a game changer for some of these scenarios. That's because "even if IT goes away," VLO spoofing, jamming, faking, decoying, all become easier and with less power/resources, than for those who do not have it. That will never change until the Laws of Physics change .. ie. never.

What is true for "a big target like a BUFF or AWACS" reaches down into the rest of the fleet with VLO stealth.

MHO
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