Favorite F-35 Quotes

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 23:24

It is just bad communication, nothing new in that at all. Always operational details are obscure and they will get obscurer.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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vilters

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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 23:55

If I was going to fly the F-35 it would sound something like this : "Skinny is gonna fly fatty". LOL.
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quicksilver

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Unread post11 Aug 2018, 00:11

lrrpf52 wrote:
playloud wrote:Unless my definition is wrong, each plane is its own sortie. A four-ship would be 4 sorties. But the part you highlighted shows they did indeed include the wingmen. They shouldn't have said a single sortie though.

You're right about the definition of a sortie in military aviation.

It would have been accurate for them to say "within the duration of his sortie", but that wouldn't print well for that particular release.


"It would have been accurate for them to say..." [my emphasis added]. It wasn't 'them' who said it; it was the author of the article.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 Aug 2018, 02:39

spazsinbad wrote:Just to add another equation changer... somewhere I've seen reference to a FIVE aircraft formation (perhaps Oz?)….

Have not found the 'five F-35 formation' so far however have found many references to the four aircraft variety. What I recall for the FIVE is that the leader was in the centre of the form with four others at points of the compass heading N.
"...The F-35 is designed to fly in groups of four and they are all supposed to share their data with each other. The military doesn’t like to talk about it, but the planes do not fly in a tight formation. It’s more like a diamond spread out over dozens or hundreds of miles. [Gen. Bogdan] … viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26629&p=287971&hilit=diamond+formation#p287971
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 11:48

No one has commented on why FIVE F-35s in a Diamond with fifth in middle is useful - using MADL at 10nm for example looks thusly:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- N

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 Nm

------------------------------------------------ W ----- 10 Nm -------- M ------- 10 Nm ------------ E

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 Nm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- S
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 11:54

"...Norwegian Air Force Major Morten Hanche, who piloted one of the Norwegian F-35s, said the mock fight with the F-22s was great practice, especially since the F-35s generally surprise and overpower other non-stealthy aircraft...." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1L01YX
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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steve2267

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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 15:39

Spaz, are you referring to the concept that the middleman avoids a visual deadspot in the middle of the diamond?

That 5-ship diamond results in a better "mesh" topology. But if 10nm spacing is "optimal" for visual detection and mutual aid, then why not fly a 4-ship (if 5 are not available) line abreast spaced at 10nm intervals? If any one ship detects the enema, they can blow through (or engage), but all your buddies could "collapse" on the bandit from the sides. So a line-abreast would be like a 1-D mesh, though the mesh would not be as robust as a 2-D (e.g. diamond) mesh.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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popcorn

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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 15:59

Don't know how important visual detection is when employing multiple 5gens. Obviously sensors and data links coverage extend BVR. There is an account of a F-22 pilot taking off and never catching sight of the other planes in his flight until they RTB.

I could imagine a benefit of the middle ship as a relay, allowing for a more widely dispersed.flight?
Last edited by popcorn on 16 Aug 2018, 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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steve2267

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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 16:19

My comment was made with an eye towards the recently reported exercise between Norwegian F-35's and USAF F-22's.

I do not know the reason behind a middleman in a diamond, if that is even a thing, but was positing some possible reasons why you might put someone there.

Here's a different thought. Lest we get caught up in planar thought... Could the middleman be flying 5-10,000 feet lower or higher than the other aircraft? More of a tetrahedron shape? Of course, now you would have different fuel burn rates between elements of your formation.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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castlebravo

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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 20:32

If the flight leader out front is going to attract the enemy's attention, and the guy in the back is going to be blasting away with his APG-81 tracking all the targets, maybe the guy in the middle needs to be lined up behind the flight lead to jam anything attacking him. Meanwhile, the other two approach off-angle and slide the knife in without ever emitting anything.
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Aug 2018, 03:07

Good point steve. Having a pyramid shaped high-cover would be really useful. Plus for extending sensors and comms footprint and triangulation. Plus getting a longer spear throw. Don't know that different fuel burns would be a problem as such, more an advantage to have one guy with more alt and gas remaining to accelerate fast to a loft launch, plus more potential energy, plus adds a hi-lo flanking option to left and right. Would this arrangement be more useful for EA use or cover on SAMs? Better SAR mapping? Better EOTS search scan, while the other guys focus on particulars? Better for negating precipitation/obscurants or clutter and terrain shadow? Better multi-angle sensor-fusing sensor inputs? Seems like a lot of potential benefits to exploit.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Unread post17 Aug 2018, 03:21

Asymmetrical formations may prove useful with stealth whereas being predictable with multiple assets tends to promise diminishing returns.
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Aug 2018, 03:46

Thing is, even if you encountered an F-35, which is known to use a 5-ship diamond wide-open formation, you still don't know what part of the diamond you've stumbled into, so you still don't know what directions the other F-35s are in.

But even if you had a magic sensor, which could see them all, but not target them directly, that combat loiter/cruise formation distribution would still be very difficult one to crack, and it can deform to flank and engage you as required, then resume its shape.

i.e. it's a tactical starting-point in a fight, not a proscriptive or restrictive shape to maintain into a fight. It's essentially a 'ready' stance to default to, before and after a fight.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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spazsinbad

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 17:20

This is perhaps 'the quote' that I Have MISREMEMBERED - by adding ONE to the number - but good replies to THE FIVE! :mrgreen:
Counting the JSF cost is tricky business viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=315303&hilit=growler#p315303
Feb 2016 ADM Julian Kerr

"[AVM Deeble] ...the RAAF's JSF fighting methodology would probably start with a three-ship formation flying tens of miles apart but operating in concert, exchanging and fusing data from each other over a much larger area of airspace.

"But the real power of this aircraft will be once you start utilising a four ship formation and integrating it as envisaged in Plan Jericho with other capabilities like Wedgetail, Poseidon, Triton, Growler, Super Hornet and the Air Warfare Destroyer."..."

Source: http://www.australiandefence.com.au/home/adm-editions
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post25 Aug 2018, 19:12

spazsinbad wrote:
"...Norwegian Air Force Major Morten Hanche, who piloted one of the Norwegian F-35s, said the mock fight with the F-22s was great practice, especially since the F-35s generally surprise and overpower other non-stealthy aircraft...." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1L01YX


Great Scott! Those darn stealth contraptions. Went completely under the radar. :crazypilot:

Official story:
https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/f-35-og-f- ... te-i-norge (Translated link)

U.S. F-22 Raptors Fly With Norwegian F-35 Lightning II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dl2sOWOvrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVg7o3htaU
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