F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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pafpilot

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Unread post21 Oct 2005, 17:37

Hello everyone!
A lot of people here talk about the invincibility(sp check)of the Su-30MKI.
What if we compare it with the Raptor.Some may argue that the Raptor is stealthy, so lets assume that its not stealthy :lol: .What will be the result then?I mean a neat fight.

Thnx :salute:
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snypa777

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Unread post21 Oct 2005, 22:43

Ahhh wouldn`t SU-30 pilots love that! If your gonna give the Raptor a handicap, wouldn`t it be fairer to give the SU one too?...Lets say...hmmm limit its A2A missiles to 15km range... :D
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Sniper69

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Unread post21 Oct 2005, 23:45

The 30 would still have a tough time because the Raptor has TV, and the heater/helmet combo.(If it gets that close). And if they make that Ramjet AMRAAM, the Raptor would be able to reach out and touch him from a more comfortable distance. Does the MKI have TV or the option for it?
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The_Mastiff

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 00:49

The 30Mki has 3d TV. It has a radar that is almost as powerfull as the ApG 77 , but it is J band and is no where near as sophisticated or clear, fast, versatile etc. Despite the similarity in wattage the Mki has no where near the Raptors radar range or tricks, or discrimination.

The Raptor has a better T/W ratio,, lower wing loading, much, much better high speed handling, will out run the Afterburner needing, huge flying target with things hanging off it that can only manuver with the raptor at low altitudes, and slow speeds. It would try to get the Raptor into a WVR fight, but it's huge RCS makes it show up hundreds of miles before the Raptor. It has a larger RCS than the eagle even. Good Luck. It does have a kind of link 16 equivalent but against a raptor that means what?

Sorry, the best of the Su family so far is meat on the table for the Raptor. It will die without knowing where it's killer is. I really doubt the RWR will pick up the APG 77 on LPI, the Su has no towed decoys etc. etc.etc. It's only capable of 8.5 G's at weight, but does carry a bunch of gas.

It's more designed to fight eagle,Falcon, mirage class aircraft but would struggle against the most advanced of these at BVR. It won't last against the Typhoon or Rafale either. It is very manuverable at airshows though. JL Raleigh NC

PS, I'm waiting for someone to post the Vayu Sena pages that "prove" how superior the Su30Mki is to anything ever made by the inferior western engineers that only make over priced, inferior aircraft.
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bring_it_on1

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 04:02

The 30Mki has 3d TV. It has a radar that is almost as powerfull as the ApG 77 , but it is J band and is no where near as sophisticated or clear, fast, versatile etc. Despite the similarity in wattage the Mki has no where near the Raptors radar range or tricks, or discrimination.


the apg-77 has almost twice as much range for a 1m^2 target!!!

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43498
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toan

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 05:48

There are variable datas and estimations for the detective range of Bars PESA radar, the best one I know is that it can "detect" the target of F-16 class (RCS = 1~2 m2) at the range of 140~160 km away.

As for AN/APG-77, many military informations and estimations believe that it will be able to "detect" the target of RCS = 1 m2 class at the range of 200~230 km away. However, in the real combat, the AN/APG-77 will use the "Stealthy mode" in order to keep the stealth of Raptor, which will put some limitation and reduction to the detective range of AN/APG-77.

The test pilots of UK declared that the Captor radar of EF-2000 had "tracked" the targets of MIG-29 and F-4 (RCS: 5~8 m2) at the range of 161~185 km away. According to the formula, it should be able to "track" the target of F-16 class (RCS = 1~2 m2) at the range of 100~130 km away theoretically. And since in general condition, the maximal tracking range of a modern fighter's radar to a certain target is often about 60~70% of its detective range to that target, I think the maximal detective range for Captor to the target of F-16 class shall between the range of 140 to 210 km class, which should be roughly equal, if not more than, the performance of Bars theoretically.

However, the weight of Captor is 193 kg, while the Bars for Su-30MKI is 650 kg...............
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pafpilot

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 17:23

anything in which MKI wins?
A MiG at you SIX, is better than no MiG at all!!
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toan

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 18:09

1. Price of course, it is said that the take-off price of Su-30MKI produced by India itself will be less than 30 million USD per fighter, which is just 1/4~1/5 take-off price of F/A-22 today.............

2. The 3D-TVC of Su-30MKI may make it have some advantages over F/A-22 in the flight performance of the situation of extremely high AoA and extremely low speed. However, these kind of advantage could be useful only if the pilot of F/A-22 is stupid enough to decide to make a gun fight with Su-30MKI..........

3. It seems that Su-30MKI has more internal fuel (10,400 kg) than F/A-22 (8,000~8,300 kg) today, so Su-30MKI may have the longer combat range than F/A-22 in certain circumstances..............

4. The capacity of anti-ship: it seems that USAF won't let F/A-22 do this job, but IAF will equip Brahmos supersonic ASM to Su-30MKI.........
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pafpilot

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 20:16

However, these kind of advantage could be useful only if the pilot of F/A-22 is stupid enough to decide to make a gun fight with Su-30MKI..........

you mean Raptor loses in a close fight
A MiG at you SIX, is better than no MiG at all!!
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LordOfBunnies

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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 21:21

No, energy is life in a dogfight (if I remember correctly from some of the other threads on this forum). The Raptor pilot starts with more of both more than likely. He sits far, far above the Sukhoi and is probably going much faster. Therefore, the Raptor pilot will probably start with the advantage. Where the Sukhoi may beat him is in a nose pointing contest at low altitude. No sane Raptor pilot would ever let it get there. Can the Sukhoi win against a Raptor? Yes, but it needs quite a few advantages before it can do it repeatedly.
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Unread post22 Oct 2005, 23:49

LordOfBunnies wrote:Where the Sukhoi may beat him is in a nose pointing contest at low altitude.


Negative. I am happy to report that NOTHING beats the F/A-22 Raptor in a dogfight, WVR fight, knife fight, turning fight, whatever you want to call it. Time and time again the Raptor has proven this in tests against some of our very best aircrews, aircrafts, and technologies that's available to them to fight the F/A-22.

No sane Raptor pilot would ever let it get there.


Yep, that's correct. The Raptor will kill the Su-XX, Mig-XX, (insert whatever plane here) well before it evens get to that point. As one Raptor pilot at Tyndall said in an interview, if they ever get to a merge, it is because they ALLOW it to happen.
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avon1944

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Unread post23 Oct 2005, 01:43

F-22 vs Su-30MKI
A lot of people here talk about the invincibility(sp check) of the Su-30MKI.
What if we compare it with the Raptor.Some may argue that the Raptor is stealthy, so lets assume that its not stealthy.


The F-22 is not invincible but, it has a technical advantage over any aircraft being developed that is massive. The F-22 has a 'greater technical advantage' over any aircraft being developed than the F-15A did over its contemporaries! Just look at the combat record of the F-15, so it is not unreasonable to expect the complete dominance of the skies from the F-22. Now does this mean the F-22 will not be shot down ever, if it sees combat that risk is always run of being shot down.

The F-22's performance is superior to the Su-30MKI's in almost every important parameter, acceleration, deceleration, cornering, climbing, cleared for an unlimited AoA (although only +60º to -45º would normally be used), etc.. The F-22 is a true fifth generation aircraft while the Su-30MKI is 4.5 generation aircraft, modified from the last fourth generation aircraft, the Su-27. So while the Su-30 can travel at the speeds of the F-22, it can not hold it for more than a few minutes. Dispite the Su-30MKI's range, in afterburner it is everything but, fuel efficient!

First detection would go to the F-22 which would give it the choice of tactics, to accept or deny combat, etc.. The F-22 leader can allow himself to be detected and lure the Su-30 in a direction that will make an easy kill for the F-22 wingman to kill from an unseen direction! We should not always assume that the F-22 and Su-30MKI would always be just 1V1, it could be 2V4, etc.

The other aspect is that the primary weapon of these two aircraft (the Slammer versus the Adder) gives the significant edge to the F-22.

The F-15 should have lost at least four to six aircraft but, do to the incompetence of the other side none have been shotdown.
Once over the Balkans two F-15C's were approaching two MiG.-29's. The MiG's performed a maneuver which caused the F-15's and AWACS to lose radar contact. The MiG's hid in the weeds. GCI instructed the MiG's to gain altitude and they reached the altitude of the F-15's in WVR! It was a quick draw contest in which the F-15's won.

What if GCI had instructed the MiG's to approach the F-15's from directly underneath or, pop up behind the F-15's, used their IRST to fire and IR missile, the ending would have most likely been different. Or, if Iran had intruded into Saudi airspace with Phoenix Missile armed Tomcats instead of F-4 Phantoms.... again we could have had a different outcome.
An Israeli F-15 was damaged by a Syrian MiG.-23 firing an Alamo Missile. A more accurate missile could have changed the outcome and ruined the F-15's perfect record.

At the beginning of the F-22/F-23 program, the USAF's Air Intelligence, DARPA and, CIA did a study as to assess what the USSR's technical capabilities would be in the time period of 1990 to 2010. The study was based upon the Cold War continuing and it turned out to be very accurate. The specs of the ATF were designed so the F-22 would be superior to anything the USSR could build in this time period. The financial breakdown of the USSR, the need for cash and, them placing some of their best weapon systems on the open market allowed the USA's intelligence services know the accuracies and inaccuracies of that study. The fact that Russia has sold the USAF Su-27's (11/26/95) and MiG.-29's only helps our intelligence community. The Russians have not developed any new aircraft since the country went bankrupt. Only modifications of the MiG.-29 or Su-27. So, the USA knows what the Russian are capable of making and will be able to make for many years.

Many other countries know what the Russian Air Force has also. In 1988, the Japanese Diet (the Japanese Parliment or Congress) paid the USSR $300,000 for two JASDF pilots did undergo training / familiarization / evaluation program in the USSR! Japan wanted to know the capabilities of the Su-27 because it had been causing the Japan Air Defense problems.

Russian aircraft are no mystery to the American Military! Indian avionics are more advance than Russian but, still are not in the class with European or American avionics.

The F-22 has abilities and can use tactics no other aircraft can use at high or low speeds. So with this advantage, why, why would the F-22 use tactics that could be matched by another aircraft? If I were the F-22 I would use the tactics that only the F-22 could do. I want to survive the fight, the thought of a fair fight when I have the advantage is nothing short of foolish! Just kill the fool and go home!

toan wrote:It seems that Su-30MKI has more internal fuel


Yes but the F-22's engines are far more fuel efficient in and out of afterburners.

"Stealthy mode" in order to keep the stealth of Raptor, which will put some limitation and reduction to the detective range of AN/APG-77


The USAF has decided to reduce the range of the AN/APG-77 from 120 miles down to 108 miles. They figure it will allow a significant reduction in output power and make the signal seem even more like random background noise.

While the USAF is not going to use the F-22 to sink ships, it will make sure that US aircraft will face no aerial opposition. That is the mission of the F-22.

Price of course, it is said that the take-off price of Su-30MKI produced by India itself will be less than 30 million USD per fighter, which is just 1/4~1/5 take-off price of F/A-22 today...


If my grandson had to fly into combat in one of these two aircraft, I would want him in the F-22. It would his best chance to get home. Me paying lower taxes or my country saving money will not mean much to me especially, if I knew better technology would bring him home.... spend the damn money!!!

Adrian
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toan

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Unread post23 Oct 2005, 14:50

pafpilot wrote:
However, these kind of advantage could be useful only if the pilot of F/A-22 is stupid enough to decide to make a gun fight with Su-30MKI.....


you mean Raptor loses in a close fight


No, there are many factors that will affect the result of dogfight, with the help of 3D-TVC, Su-30MKI may have some equalities to , or even some advantages over, F/A-22 in some of them. I think that F/A-22 is still superior than Su-30 MKI in WVR combat, but the gap between them in WVR combat shall be much less than the gap between them in BVR combat. And the clever pilot shouldn't take such a risk if he can terminate the enemy fighter several times in BVR combat...
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The_Mastiff

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Unread post23 Oct 2005, 22:36

The USAF has decided to reduce the range of the AN/APG-77 from 120 miles down to 108 miles. They figure it will allow a significant reduction in output power and make the signal seem even more like random background noise.


Do you have a source for this classified information?
----------------------
Is there anywhere I can read about the event in which you described:
Once over the Balkans two F-15C's were approaching two MiG.-29's. The MiG's performed a maneuver which caused the F-15's and AWACS to lose radar contact. The MiG's hid in the weeds. GCI instructed the MiG's to gain altitude and they reached the altitude of the F-15's in WVR! It was a quick draw contest in which the F-15's won.



you mean Raptor loses in a close fight


Pafpilot, our air force typically will try to avoid WVR fighting not so much because they think some other countries super deadly aircraft might out turn or BFM them but because the current crop of close in heaters and HMS are so good. They feel pretty much they can win one on one in BVR with their training and their HMS/9X combo but what about other aircraft that could be killing you with a no escape zone shot while you are busy dogfighting the red baron. It doesn't make sense to get in that furball especially as your systems give you the advantage at BVR. They are very well trained and equipped for it should it arise, but why do it if it's not necessessary?

People that talk about which aircraft can out dogfight which are kind of missing the boat when it comes to modern policy in western type air forces. Despite that it seems to be a favorite topic to discuss. JL raleigh NC
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Unread post24 Oct 2005, 02:26

there are many factors that will affect the result of dogfight


And variables. Coupled with the modern day weapons that is available, are the reasons why nobody would really want to be in a knife fight if they don't have to.



with the help of 3D-TVC, Su-30MKI may have some equalities to , or even some advantages over, F/A-22 in some of them.


I can understand why some people would think that "3D" TV nozzels would make something more maneuverable than a "2D" TV nozzel would. The truth is there are also other factors that equates to the performance of an aircraft, in this case maneuverability.

The Raptor is the first production fighter with thrust vectoring built in from the outset. It was never looked at as an after thought, slapped-on accessory such as the Sukhois and Migs (and possibly the Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, or any other "4th or 4.5 gen" fighters in the future). The combination of the Raptor's aerodynamics, huge wing, large/powerful control surfaces (which you can see), coupled with the most advanced flight control system, computing power (and other features that you can't see) results in the Raptor from the outset to outmaneuver ANYBODY now and for the forseeable future by a WIDE margin. That is how it was designed.

Hey Mastiff, see you been on this board a while now. I've been visiting this board on and off for a while now and just recently decided to join. Sure is different than the other board isn't it?
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