Wussie UAV's

Sub-scale and Full-Scale Aerial Targets and RPAs - Remotely-Piloted Aircraft
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JR007

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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 05:33

Loss of control caused Predator crash

• MQ-1 Predator Unmanned Aerial Vehicle

7/6/2005 - LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. (AFPN) -- The loss of control of an MQ-1 Predator unmanned aerial vehicle caused it to run out of fuel and crash Jan. 14 at a forward-deployed location in Southwest Asia, Air Force officials said July 6.

The $3.5 million Predator, which belonged to the 15th Reconnaissance Squadron at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., was destroyed upon impact. There were no injuries, fatalities or damages to other people, property or equipment.

The incident occurred when the pilot and sensor operator experienced a malfunction with their computer control system. Both control stations were rebooted, but communication links with the aircraft were lost and never regained. The accident happened about eight and a half hours into the mission, with the aircraft flying uncontrolled and crashing about 21 hours into the flight.

According to the Air Combat Command Accident Investigation Board report, the primary factors leading to the loss of control of the aircraft and the crash included hardware failure and the aircrew following incorrect rebooting procedures.
Burning debris never reversed on anyone…

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Shaba

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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 05:38

JR007 wrote:The $3.5 million Predator, which belonged to the 15th Reconnaissance Squadron at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., was destroyed upon impact. There were no injuries, fatalities or damages to other people, property or equipment.



No fatalities or even a downed pilot....'nuff said. :wink:
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JR007

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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 05:41

Yup, and it wouldn't have cost you and I that 3.5 million dollars if it had a pilot, instead of some DPK in a booth....
Burning debris never reversed on anyone…

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Shaba

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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 06:16

IMHO, $$$ are irrelevant...human life is priority.

Recently, there was a crash of a U-2 that killed the pilot. There also have been quite a few UAV crashes, but no deaths of pilots resulted from those.
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falconfixer860261

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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 14:22

JR007 wrote:Yup, and it wouldn't have cost you and I that 3.5 million dollars if it had a pilot, instead of some DPK in a booth....


This stuff is still in its infancy. But mark my words. This is the way things are going. I know it's tough for those used to sitting in the airplane to fly it but the times they are a changin.....
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parrothead

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Unread post08 Jul 2005, 05:43

Guys - the important thing that I can see here is that the multi-million dollar aircraft wouldn't have crashed if there had been a pilot onboard! Sure, there can be advantages at times to UAVs, but I've talked to a couple of the pilots who say that the Predators are tough to land due to a lack of the normal cues on final and the $1,000,000+ camera system gets destroyed a lot more often on landing than you'd like to know.
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Guysmiley

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Unread post08 Jul 2005, 16:03

Its a tough one. How many $1,000,000+ camera turrets are a human pilot's life worth? It depends on who you ask I suppose.

We'll never see a UAV strapping a briefcase in the back seat where it gets jammed against the throttle either... the point is nothing is perfect and whether its hardware malfunctions or human error or whatever, high performance and cutting edge hardware drops out of the sky every once in awhile.
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TenguNoHi

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Unread post08 Jul 2005, 20:00

Yup, and it wouldn't have cost you and I that 3.5 million dollars if it had a pilot, instead of some DPK in a booth....


Recently, there was a crash of a U-2 that killed the pilot. There also have been quite a few UAV crashes, but no deaths of pilots resulted from those.


I think Shabe grazed it here. A U-2S cost 400 million dollars, more than 100 times the cost of the UAV. And when you take into account that the U-2 requires more intensive maintanance etc... that cost raises even more. We could crash alsmost 114 UAVs trying to accomplish 1 mission and still save the life of a pilot if we would have only sent 1 U-2. Also note that U-2s are also notorious for difficulty on landing. IMO, I dont care if I lose 3.5 mil in that case....

-Aaron
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parrothead

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Unread post11 Jul 2005, 05:55

TenguNoHi wrote:
Yup, and it wouldn't have cost you and I that 3.5 million dollars if it had a pilot, instead of some DPK in a booth....


Recently, there was a crash of a U-2 that killed the pilot. There also have been quite a few UAV crashes, but no deaths of pilots resulted from those.


I think Shabe grazed it here. A U-2S cost 400 million dollars, more than 100 times the cost of the UAV. And when you take into account that the U-2 requires more intensive maintanance etc... that cost raises even more. We could crash alsmost 114 UAVs trying to accomplish 1 mission and still save the life of a pilot if we would have only sent 1 U-2. Also note that U-2s are also notorious for difficulty on landing. IMO, I dont care if I lose 3.5 mil in that case....

-Aaron


To compare the capabilities of these two aircraft is like comparing a Viper with a Cessna - not even close!!! While they both take pictures, they're both specialized for different facets of that basic mission. My cellphone's digital camera takes pictures and it's easy to carry, but it won't do the job of a 15 Megapixel digital SLR :wink: .

I'm also curious as to where you get the $400,000,000 price tag for the U-2? That's more along the lines of a B-2!
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JR007

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Unread post11 Jul 2005, 06:06

A Viper and a Cessna… That was a darned accurate comparison!

You don’t wanna know how many Wuss Mobiles, UAV’s, missions it would take to gain the same information given to you by one hop of the Dragon Lady…

Besides, only non-pilots like UAV’s… Because there are only two types of aircraft. Fighters and Targets. Decide which you want to fly…
Burning debris never reversed on anyone…

JR
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Forestin

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Unread post11 Jul 2005, 17:22

IMHO Pilots will never get substituded.

As long sa the a Plane is RC it is vulnerable to Jamming.
When it goes auto it is not as flexible as a Human when it commes to take decitions regarding the mission.
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TenguNoHi

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Unread post12 Jul 2005, 06:20

I'm also curious as to where you get the $400,000,000 price tag for the U-2? That's more along the lines of a B-2!


FAS.org I cant verify that their source of the information is correct but its the best I had to go on since other sources said the price tag was classified. (including this one in many case)

And I understand the capabilities of the 2 air craft difer. My point is that the reason we switch to UAVs is with good intention and will hopefully tremendously cut back on loss of life...

IMHO Pilots will never get substituded.


Yup, your right, pilots will NEVER EVER get substituded. Just like the Samurai, they never got substituted either and they said the same thing! Heck, I was just in Japan last week and a guy pulled a katana out on me for lookin at him wrong. And thankfully 3 guys will AR-15s came to save my life but it was tragic for them because as I got away the samurai deflected all the bullets with his sword and this shot HUGE hadoukan fireballs into them from his butt that blew them all the way to the Kyoto gardens! But in the long run, Im really glad Samurai didnt ever get replaced because they are ichiban and they are far better at defending Japan then a modern army with guns would ever be. :)

Someone said it in another thread.... never say never in Aviation!



Besides, only non-pilots like UAV’s… Because there are only two types of aircraft. Fighters and Targets. Decide which you want to fly…


JR I respect you for a wealth of knowledge in the highest reguard, but I have to just say, IMO, this is BS. Sorry bro =/ I meen, I want to be a fighter pilot too. I dont wanna be prey... And I live in the same romance all you guys do and I REALLY REALLY hate to see UAVs potentially swap out a lotta good men and women to perform a half reared version of the job. But you know, people originally thought the first firearms would never ever swap out melee weapons or bows and arrows because they were so unreliable and always suspect to jam or misfire, and were never very accurate =/ In my attitude, I KNOW when im flying vipers some day, and I get up there and am ambushed by 100s of UAVs, I will defeat every one of them. But in my mind, I just know that stuffs not likely =/

Anyways, good discussion guys!

-Aaron
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falconfixer860261

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Unread post12 Jul 2005, 14:26

Gentlemen - it's not just about price, etc. Don't mistake the current UAV's for what's coming down the pike. I will say it again. UAV technology is in its infancy. Just because the current models are hard to land, break cameras, doesn't mean those obstacles can't be overcome. Do some reading on UCAV - it's a totally different animal and ballgame. How would any current fighter stand a chance against a vehicle with 15G turning, twice the acceleration and climb rate, twice the range, half the size, and full stealth survive? Getting the pilot out of the vehicle gets rid of a lot of restrictions.

Aaron - you will not survive an encounter with even one UCAV in your Viper. Predators? Sure. UCAV's? No.
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2sBlind

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Unread post12 Jul 2005, 18:32

Two points:

One - The price of the UCAV is going to be exceptionally high. Maybe even along the lines if not more than the F-35.

Two - You almost have to count on a UCAV not being flown from the ground like the Predator. Any RF signal is going to be jamable to some degree at least. Programming the SA that a pilot provides into a UCAV is going to take a while to do. I'm not saying it isn't going to happen, but it is not going to happen in the near future. I'll take a patch wearer in a Raptor (I'd say Viper, but that wouldn't stand a chance BVR) over any UCAV for the next 15 years at least. The dynamics of a BFM or ACM engagement are so complex that it is going to take a leap in computer technology to beat a human, even with a 15G UCAV. The Viper can pull 9G, but most fights don't happen at 9Gs, and it's not b/c the pilot can't take it.
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falconfixer860261

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Unread post12 Jul 2005, 19:34

I agree that the UCAV will be expensive and that it won't deploy in the near-term. But - the rate of progress and obsolesence in technology may see it happen faster than anyone thinks.
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