F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Nov 2019, 06:53

zero-one wrote:
to be fair, I don't see a reason why we should doubt their supercruise claims. Put enough thrust on a brick and it will go super sonic. just look at the F-4 :wink:

I think a Rafale and Typhoon still has substantially less drag and more thrust to weight than the F-4 even if it had a bag and 4 missiles.
Its not unreasonable to think that they can break the barrier with AB and maintain Mach 1.2 in Max mil power at certain altitudes. 40K maybe


Sure it's fair.........Jon Beesley once said even the Amraam (AIM-120) had a big impact of flight performance. In addition the weight and drag of an external fuel tank. Is so high that it consumes half of the fuel held within.


Which, is not to say the Rafale can't. Just saying we have good reason to question the claim.... :wink:
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 26 Nov 2019, 06:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Nov 2019, 06:56

Also, let's say for the sake of argument. The supercruise claim of Mach 1.2 with missiles and tanks is accurate. The drag would still be considerable and even on military power. Would consume a great amount of fuel.



In short the duration would likely be very short.... :wink:
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linkomart

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Unread post26 Nov 2019, 14:14

Corsair1963 wrote:
zero-one wrote:
to be fair, I don't see a reason why we should doubt their supercruise claims. Put enough thrust on a brick and it will go super sonic. just look at the F-4 :wink:

I think a Rafale and Typhoon still has substantially less drag and more thrust to weight than the F-4 even if it had a bag and 4 missiles.
Its not unreasonable to think that they can break the barrier with AB and maintain Mach 1.2 in Max mil power at certain altitudes. 40K maybe


Sure it's fair.........Jon Beesley once said even the Amraam (AIM-120) had a big impact of flight performance. In addition the weight and drag of an external fuel tank. Is so high that it consumes half of the fuel held within.


Which, is not to say the Rafale can't. Just saying we have good reason to question the claim.... :wink:


Well, the Rafale and the Typhoon carries the missiles in tandem and semi-recessed and that is a lot of less drag than (a pylon and) a AMRAAM under the wing. Also the Typhoon is slender compared to the F-35 and adding extra cross section to the F-35 punishes it more than the Eurofighter. (remember the added area is both pylon and Missile)
Also if you look at the Rafale tanks they are arearuled to minimise the cross sectional area. This minimizes supersonic drag, so for me it's highly plausible that they can go supersonic with bags and missiles, and perhaps even supercruise at some altitudes.
And... You always use AB (or a dive) to go through transonic unless you have extremely much excess power dry.... don't know of any airplane that likes to stay in the transsonic regime.

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linkomart

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 09:05

A small correction to my last post, Rafale does not AFAIK carry missiles in tandem, and not semi recessed either. But it has two small pylons under the rear fuselage that probably are very low drag.

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Unread post10 May 2020, 11:56

Finally someone qualified does a factual review of this video:



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loke

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Unread post10 May 2020, 16:01

Very interesting.

I was surprised to see that Rafale managed to get a lock on the F-22 several times. I remember reading about F-15 pilots complaining that they could not get a lock on the F-22 even when it was close enough to be eye-balled.

Also this was back in 2009. Rafale has much improved sensors since then, both radar and optical, so it will be able to obtain a lock at even greater distances with the latest updates. Of course Rafale would still not get close enough unless the F-22 pilot makes a mistake.
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BDF

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Unread post10 May 2020, 19:20

loke wrote:Very interesting.

I was surprised to see that Rafale managed to get a lock on the F-22 several times. I remember reading about F-15 pilots complaining that they could not get a lock on the F-22 even when it was close enough to be eye-balled.

Also this was back in 2009. Rafale has much improved sensors since then, both radar and optical, so it will be able to obtain a lock at even greater distances with the latest updates. Of course Rafale would still not get close enough unless the F-22 pilot makes a mistake.


I'm almost certain that Raptors had Luneburg Lenses installed during these training events, which would make it easy for the Rafale's radar to detect it. Plus it was very close range as ATE pointed out. Just a guess but it appears that the Raptor driver was a lower experienced pilot. Made some pretty big errors. As always, it boils down to the man (or woman) in the crate and not the crate itself.
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Unread post10 May 2020, 19:39

BDF wrote:
loke wrote:Very interesting.

I was surprised to see that Rafale managed to get a lock on the F-22 several times. I remember reading about F-15 pilots complaining that they could not get a lock on the F-22 even when it was close enough to be eye-balled.

Also this was back in 2009. Rafale has much improved sensors since then, both radar and optical, so it will be able to obtain a lock at even greater distances with the latest updates. Of course Rafale would still not get close enough unless the F-22 pilot makes a mistake.


I'm almost certain that Raptors had Luneburg Lenses installed during these training events, which would make it easy for the Rafale's radar to detect it. Plus it was very close range as ATE pointed out.

OK Luneberg lenses is probably the explanation -- so when the F-15 pilot could not get a lock in spite of being very close range perhaps the F-22 was flying without? Or with "smaller" Luneberg lenses?
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Unread post10 May 2020, 21:36

Rafale also has IRST with laser rangefinder.
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Unread post11 May 2020, 06:14

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Rafale also has IRST with laser rangefinder.


Exactly. There is no practical way of defeating IRST or laser rangefinder at close ranges. Rafale also has - which will also see and track F-22 at close ranges if the Rafale pilot can point his aircraft towards it. Rafale also has possibly the most advanced sensor fusion system in 4th gen fighter aircraft, which likely would also help.

Rafale is definitely very dangerous adversary even against F-22 if the fight goes to WVR dogfight. It's powerful and maneuverable aircraft which has advanced avionics systems and nice array of sensors. F-22 is even more powerful and maneuverable overall, but I bet the room for error is rather small in this environment. Of course F-22 pilots would avoid any WVR combat in real combat, unless absolutely necessary.
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Unread post11 May 2020, 16:34

hornetfinn wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Rafale also has IRST with laser rangefinder.


Exactly. There is no practical way of defeating IRST or laser rangefinder at close ranges. Rafale also has - which will also see and track F-22 at close ranges if the Rafale pilot can point his aircraft towards it. Rafale also has possibly the most advanced sensor fusion system in 4th gen fighter aircraft, which likely would also help.

Rafale is definitely very dangerous adversary even against F-22 if the fight goes to WVR dogfight. It's powerful and maneuverable aircraft which has advanced avionics systems and nice array of sensors. F-22 is even more powerful and maneuverable overall, but I bet the room for error is rather small in this environment. Of course F-22 pilots would avoid any WVR combat in real combat, unless absolutely necessary.

Excellent points. I think that with the future F4 upgrades just around the corner the Rafale will keep a significant edge over any non-Western a/c for quite some time to come. Perhaps J-20 will be the only one that could potentially give the Rafale a hard time in the medium time frame?
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Unread post11 May 2020, 19:23

It is a good notice that both the F-22 and Rafale don't have HMD in the dogfight. If they both have it then the dogfight can be over very fast. One bad move and it is over.
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Unread post11 May 2020, 19:39

At the end tho, Ate was asked which fighter would he take into an air superiority mission. He said if you will train me in an F-22, I'll take the F-22
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Unread post11 May 2020, 20:35

loke wrote:
BDF wrote:
loke wrote:Very interesting.

I was surprised to see that Rafale managed to get a lock on the F-22 several times. I remember reading about F-15 pilots complaining that they could not get a lock on the F-22 even when it was close enough to be eye-balled.

Also this was back in 2009. Rafale has much improved sensors since then, both radar and optical, so it will be able to obtain a lock at even greater distances with the latest updates. Of course Rafale would still not get close enough unless the F-22 pilot makes a mistake.


I'm almost certain that Raptors had Luneburg Lenses installed during these training events, which would make it easy for the Rafale's radar to detect it. Plus it was very close range as ATE pointed out.

OK Luneberg lenses is probably the explanation -- so when the F-15 pilot could not get a lock in spite of being very close range perhaps the F-22 was flying without? Or with "smaller" Luneberg lenses?


In US exercises, F-22/35s don't need to use Luneberg lenses, but when training overseas, they absolutely will.
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Unread post12 May 2020, 07:25

zero-one wrote:At the end tho, Ate was asked which fighter would he take into an air superiority mission. He said if you will train me in an F-22, I'll take the F-22


There is no question about that. F-22 is currently in a league of its own when it comes to actual air superiority missions. It has VLO stealth, Mach 1.8+ supercruise, great maneuverability in all speed and altitudes along with very powerful radar and EW system. No other fighter aircraft has all those attributes. I see currently only F-35 being able to compete due to also having VLO stealth and even more comprehensive sensor suite along with more advanced sensor fusion and networking.

But when it comes only WVR dogfighting, then Rafale is one of the best 4th gen fighter aircraft around. It's powerful and maneuverable (like F-16 Block 50 or slightly better) and has possibly the best and most comprehensive sensor suite of all 4th gen fighters. I can see it being tough opponent even for F-22 in WVR dogfight exercises. But like all other 4th gen fighters, it would not fare well in real world combat against F-22.
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