Aerial Combat during Falkland Campaign 1982

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duplex

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 10:31

Can anyone tell me what really happened.All I know was that the British Sea Harriers defeated MirageIII's by 32:0 ...Harriers were equipped with the latest version of the American heat-seaking Sidewinders which was not available to NATO in 1982 and Ms Thatcher got her hands on them somehow.
Is this the whole story?
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KarimAbdoun

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 10:56

Here is some pics from Falkland
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FpHMSHermes1986.jpg
HMS Hermes
falkland.jpg
The fighter is not what counts, it's the one who's flying it that matters!
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Asif

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 12:22

This is a old story, but yes its true. The US supplied at the time the latest model AIM-9 Sidewinder [L], plus satellite imagery and intellligence. The US were also rumoured to have offered the use of its own aircraft in the campaign (Navy F-14's), but Thatcher turned down that offer from Reagan.

Read further at this site. Should help you find better links to info you may want to read.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encycl ... ds_War.htm

Cheers
Asif
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duplex

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 13:19

The US were also rumoured to have offered the use of its own aircraft in the campaign (Navy F-14's), but Thatcher turned down that offer from Reagan.

Thanks for the link Asif..Maybe it is just a rumour but HMS Sheffield would have survived the exocet attack if F-14 had been deployed..
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KarimAbdoun

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 16:10

If there was Tomcats, then US carriers would have been deployed, that would make them targets first.
The fighter is not what counts, it's the one who's flying it that matters!
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MKopack

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 20:28

I think that it is very unlikely that the US would have gotten involved as far as sending aircraft / vessels to play any sort of a combat role. Indirect assistance, I'm sure happened, but I doubt that there was any chance of the Nimitz steaming south.

On the other hand if this rumored 'use of its aircraft' involved some sort of transfer to the RN, the British carriers were of course only capable of STOVL operations. Even the earlier - by then retired - British conventional carriers (Ark Royal, etc...) were equipped with bridle type catapults that wouldn't have been capable of launching a Tomcat.

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Taco44

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 22:44

When deployed to Chile last year, we flew against some of the Argentinian Mirage IIIs that participated in the attacks against the Brits. They still carried the kill markings from those missions as well as the outline of the Falklands stenciled to their aircraft just behind the inlet. Here are a few pics:
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Picture 032.jpg
Argentina Mirage III
Picture 033.jpg
Argentina Mirage III
Picture 035.jpg
Argentina Mirage III
Picture 036.jpg
Argentina Mirage III
Salitre static.jpg
Chilean Mirage III, Brazilean F-5E, NMANG F-16C, Argentinean Mirage III, Chilean Mirage Pantera
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Pumpkin

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Unread post18 Apr 2005, 23:09

:shock: Pardon me, don't meant to be insensitive but those are cool kill mark. I don't think I have not seen ship kill mark before. Thanks for posting Taco44.

Here is a informative article. An unfortnate event with great lessons learnt for both naval and aerial warfares....
Desmond
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ACSheva

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Unread post19 Apr 2005, 03:56

Hey if you can't bag a jet, then go for the ships. I hear they don't maneuver as well.

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duplex

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Unread post19 Apr 2005, 06:23

KarimAbdoun wrote:If there was Tomcats, then US carriers would have been deployed, that would make them targets first.


So what? MirageIII's and SE's are welcome. F-14's with Hawkeye support and Phoenix !! haha what a mess..Do you really believe that Mirage III's could have threatened a Nimitz class carrier?a$$ carrier?
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AIr-Strike31

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Unread post20 Apr 2005, 06:53

duplex wrote:
KarimAbdoun wrote:If there was Tomcats, then US carriers would have been deployed, that would make them targets first.


So what? MirageIII's and SE's are welcome. F-14's with Hawkeye support and Phoenix !! haha what a mess..Do you really believe that Mirage III's could have threatened a Nimitz class carrier?


Haha, you're right, I don't think that they would have had to much of a chance (lol).
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PetervanStigt

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 01:40

Some extra info: Those Mirages were in fact ex-Israeli Neshers, called Daggers. The Brits proved the Harrier's worth in that campaign. Both Sea and land Harriers had a hushkit double AIM9 rail under each wing. This together with superior tactics and a phenomenon called Viffing (vectoring in forward flight) gave the Limeys air superiority. Another big feat was Operation Black Buck, the longest bomber sorties ever flown. Vulcans took of from the UK, stopover on Ascension Island and then on to Port Stanley, Falklands. I read somewhere they had no more than 10min loiter time left. By the way the Argentinian carrier Cinque de Mayo is the ex-Dutch Karel Doorman, which in turn was an ex-British (Illustrious-type) vessel. It has been retired now, sold off to India and completely disassembled by hand (!), done by people living on the shipyard, dying of cancer because of all that asbest that was still in it... Always been a Harrer fan and don't understand why not more countries bought them, a helluva concept!
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Harrier II.jpg
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snypa777

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 21:47

Hi fellas! Ok, I am no expert on the Falklands campaign but I work with half a dozen people who were THERE , a couple of naval guys and a Para, a Welshguardsman.
I listen to their stories with interest, not all of them bad.

First I cant understand why there is a silhouette of HMS Brilliant on one of those Mirage 3s. My pal says that the ship receieved a few cannon fire rounds from a Mirage and sailed under its own power back to Portsmouth after the war. Seems the argentinian air force gave kill markings out for just flying low over a target!

Excocets killed only two ships in the campaign, one warship, Sheffield, one cargo ship, Atlantic conveyor. One excocet damaged another destroyer, but she sailed out under her own steam. Sheffield was on her own as a radar picket ship with no air cover. She was also using sat-comms gear which interferred with ESM gear which would have detected the incoming sea skimmer and given her some chance of deploying chaff and turning away from the missile, minimising damage. The commanders, and the guys knew that some ships would be lost, frigates were placed static in San Carlos water to take the brunt of the attacks from the enemy air force. To keep their attention off of the troop transports. This worked, thousands of troops were landed sucessfully, apart from the attack on the Galahad, which cost fifty lives. My good buddy was on that ship.

The US government actually offered the UK an old large aircraft carrier ( dont know which one). The Royal navy realised that they couldnt simply put a RN crew onto a ship like that and make it work. It would take a year of training. Thatcher had excellent relations with the Us government and Reagan. Another interesting thing about the campaign, the Argentinian AF tried to buy more Excocets through "back channels" from France. Mi6 got wind of it and posed as arms middle men and actually negotiated with the Argentinians middle men, stalling them and keeping them from looking elsewhere for extra Excocet rounds!

No one thought the Harrier would take care of the Mirage and Dagger aircraft except the pilots themselves and the taskforce chief, ADmr Sandy Woodward. Yes, not a single Harrier was lost in air to air combat. The few that were shot down were taken down with ground fire while flying CAS, low down. The Harrier is more vunerable than most fighters because of its complex propulsion system.The latest sidewinder was delivered in numbers while the task force was in transit and it made the difference. The Harrier pilots always said that the "opposition" pilots were good stick and rudder men but their tactics were poor. The naval Harrier pilots were some of the best pilots in the millitary at that time. You had to be good to fly an aircrfat that didnt forgive mistakes!

The truth is, the British pilots used their aircraft to its fullest extent and maximised its capabilities at low and medium altitudes. They stayed away from the high altitude game where the Mirage would have the advantage. Eventually the Mirage pilots had to "come down" to engage the Harrier and got spanked.
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PetervanStigt

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 21:51

Hear hear, thanx for the addition, Snypa 777 :D
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snypa777

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Unread post05 Nov 2005, 22:09

Cheers Peter!

Got another workmate who served on an SSN during the campaign, his sub` patrolled the South Atlantic. He has said that the three SSNs that were there could have decimated the Argentinian navy if they wanted to. The politicians said nooooooo, ROEs are a bitch sometimes!
Well. got to go out and drink some beer and light some fireworks! Its Guy Fawkes night. He is the guy who tried to blow up the houses of parliament in 1605. It was actually an attempted coup.... Can you believe that bonfire night is celebrated in New Zealand and Canada! It involves building a fire and placing an effigy of Guy Fawkes on top! An effigy of the Pope used to go on as well up to the 18th century. Cant work that one out!!!!!!!

Cheers guys!!
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
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