F-18 Shot down by Mig 25 or Mig 31?

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dillbag

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Unread post21 Feb 2005, 12:37

I am not sure wich Iraq conflict it was but I just wanted to verify the rumours that an F-18 was shot down buy an Iraqi Mig -25 or 31. Has anybody heard the same thing or could tell me more about it?
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Malin

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Unread post21 Feb 2005, 13:30

A MiG-25PD recorded the only Iraqi air-to-air kill during the first Gulf war. It did shot down an F/A-18 with an AA-6 Acrid on the first night of the war, the pilot (Michael S. Speicher) of the F/A-18 ejected and where/is reported as a MIA ,But there is some rumours that it where a SAM battery that downed the F/A-18
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DogF16

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Unread post21 Feb 2005, 19:28

Malin,
You sound so definitive in your response. :wtf:
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Malin

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Unread post21 Feb 2005, 20:38

DogF-16 wrote:Malin,
You sound so definitive in your response. :wtf:


I am quite sure but i can be wrong ;) a good secure is janes.com but I have been reading about this incident in a couple off military website , but the big question is where he downed by the Foxbat or the SAM..
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LinkF16SimDude

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Unread post22 Feb 2005, 00:16

In OIF, we did lose a Hornet to fratricide from a Patriot battery. Nobody was on the same sheet when it came to ID codes methinks and the Patriot mistook the Hornet for an enemy jet.

In ODS, the Speicher case is still a mystery. However I don't think he was downed by an Iraqi AF interceptor for the simple reason that we had a boatload of airborne C-squared stuff up that night (AWACS and Hawkeyes among others) that could have either vectored him away or onto the bandit. There was also Navy AND USAF fighter cover for the the A-G strikers that would have taken out any bandit long before it engaged Speicher. So I'm leanin' in the SAM direction as what got him. But we may never know what happened until:

a) Speicher turns up alive (sadly, very unlikely at this point :( ), or

b) the radar tapes from either the AWACS or Hawkeye (or both) that was watchin' Speicher that night are declassed and released.
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Malin

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Unread post22 Feb 2005, 08:07

LinkF-16SimDude wrote:In OIF, we did lose a Hornet to fratricide from a Patriot battery. Nobody was on the same sheet when it came to ID codes methinks and the Patriot mistook the Hornet for an enemy jet.

In ODS, the Speicher case is still a mystery. However I don't think he was downed by an Iraqi AF interceptor for the simple reason that we had a boatload of airborne C-squared stuff up that night (AWACS and Hawkeyes among others) that could have either vectored him away or onto the bandit. There was also Navy AND USAF fighter cover for the the A-G strikers that would have taken out any bandit long before it engaged Speicher. So I'm leanin' in the SAM direction as what got him. But we may never know what happened until:

a) Speicher turns up alive (sadly, very unlikely at this point :( ), or

b) the radar tapes from either the AWACS or Hawkeye (or both) that was watchin' Speicher that night are declassed and released.


And if there where a Iraqi pilot that succeeded to shoot down a American F/A18 he would be a hero in Iraq standing beside Baghdad Bob :lol: …so to be honest I think the SAM downed him.
And Iraqi soldier did shoot him on the ground :cry:
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TC

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Unread post22 Feb 2005, 20:42

There has been so much information/disinformation going on with the Speicher case, that I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. I've also seen in several sources that the mishap investigation crew (a couple of whom were interviewed) stated that Speicher went down with a catastrophic engine failure. An engine went out, and Speicher flat-spinned into the ground, although the evidence is clear that he punched out.

The crew also says that his jet went into the ground vertically (read that, pancaked) and no evidence pointed to combat damage to the engine that failed. The trajectory of the aircraft going into the ground, and the jet's condition doesn't match an A2A hit. An A2A hit typically will spread pieces of the plane out over a greater distance, and the trajectory of the plane will be more parabolic than vertical.

You don't typically see these huge midair explosions with an A2A hit like you saw in "Top Gun."

I have to agree with you, Malin. Given how large the Iraqi propaganda machine was during that time, had any Iraqi pilot succeeded in shooting down an American pilot, Saddam would have ensured that his face would have been all over the media (read that, Al Jazeera) and he would have been the largest Iraqi hero since Saddam himself. Think about it, what better way to show the "combat failure of the highly trained American fighter pilots in the middle of the Mother of All Wars." :roll:

I just hope we can find Scott Speicher some day soon.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 03:38

I just hope we can find Scott Speicher some day soon.


2 :D !!!
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ACSheva

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 04:00

3

The crew also says that his jet went into the ground vertically (read that, pancaked)


Actually if you read the book "No one Left Behind" the Michael Scott Speicher story. You will read that the jet was found in quite good condition,it bassicly skidded on the desert floor for some yards. It wasnt pancaked or anything like that. Even the pictures show it. Also it does say that the Mig 25 was seen at the same place were Spiky was last recorded, bassicly the author,and some of his fellow pilots are saying that they think the Mig got him. Its quite a good book. Much interesting to read.

I just pray that his brave soul is rescued
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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 06:44

Hey AC, I don't mean to be blunt, but I tend to not read (or give a $hit about) the delusional ramblings of these "conspiracy theorists" who weren't there. Too much of that goes into the Oliver Stone realm for me. Yarsniske's book bordered on fiction, and it quickly lost credibility with me.

From the very word of the mishap investigators WHO WERE THERE (that always helps), they could not trace an engine failure to combat damage. Rather, as you would have noted from my last post they concluded it was a catastrophic, mechanical engine failure.

Couple this with a flat spin, and no visible combat damage, what are you left with? The jet broke, he punched out, and around the same time, his buddies saw "some type of explosion" which was ASSUMED (but you and I both know what they say about ASSUME) to be Speicher's jet, but this was never proven.

So, there you go. I challenge everybody to always talk to people who were there. Get the real story, from real participants. Don't trust some bull$hit New York Times reporter, or 60 Minutes guy who thinks he knows all the answers. Yarsniske was in an intel officer, but she knows as much about fighter aviation as I know about performing a Quadruple Bypass Surgery.

It seems from your posts that you'd love to see a Russian A2A kill of a contemporary American fighter, but it just can't be proven without a doubt in this case, I'm afraid. Oh yeah, and please don't refer to the man as "Spiky" like he's your best friend. That wasn't even his real nickname, it was "Spike." Show a little respect for the man.

All I know is that I'd like very much to meet him in person some day and ask him what really happened, but given the amount of time passed, I don't know if we'll ever get that chance. I just hope we can find him.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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dillbag

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 15:48

I knew it had to be B.S. about the air to air kill. Forgive my arrogance, but I didn't think there was anyway some Iraqi pilot could outskill an American pilot. Yankee Proud all the way bro. Thanks for your insight.
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Malin

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 16:02

Never Underestimate Your Enemy :wink: a Mig-25 is a highly lethal weapon in the hand off a good pilot. And I am quite sure that there were some highly skilled pilots in the Iraqi air force…
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ACSheva

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 19:00

but I tend to not read (or give a $hit about) the delusional conspiracy


TC come down a bit, I seriously did not want to offend you.
If you "actually" read that book, you would know that the investigation was done by "REAL NAVY INVESTIGATORS". They do know more than you,and I.And it was no flat spin into the ground, the photos show it for Gods sake. You cant argue there man,at all. It sounds to me like you are the one that will go out of youre way to make sure that it was in no way a MIG kill. Mikoyan Gurevich 25 could of shot down Spike,even Scotts pilot coleagues think that it was a 25 kill.Common sense tells me that pilots know more than us. Read the book. Its not a "conspiracy". Allot of them are.


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Stefaan

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 21:04

ACSheva,

ACSheva wrote:If you "actually" read that book


I think that from TC's words "Yarsniske's book bordered on fiction, and it quickly lost credibility with me" we can deduce that he actually read the book.

ACSheva wrote: know more than us


Please don't make assumptions about other members knowledge based on your own knowledge - you could be mistaken. TC's source ("From the very word of the mishap investigators WHO WERE THERE") seems pretty reliable, don't you agree?

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TC

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Unread post24 Feb 2005, 02:11

Thank you for bailing me out there Stefaan. Highly appreciated. This Bud's For You! :beer:

Something I didn't think to mention earlier, but I think now makes perfect sense is this: When the Foxbat and the Hornet were both in the area, prior to the mishap, they were headed nose on. The crash site pics clearly show no visible damage to the M-61 barrels. Where on the Hornet is the gun located, you may ask? Right in the snot locker. :wink:

If a nose-on A2A shot had hit the Hornet, it would have most likely caused structural damage to the foward section of the jet, and one would have seen damage to the gun barrels. Something else to note: if the Hornet had hit at a high speed, low angle of attack impact, it would have spread wreckage over a greater area, and once again, there would have been more visible structural damage to the foward section of the jet. M-61 barrels like to warp in those situations. God knows they're fragile enough as it is.

Also note what Malin and I said about the Iraqi propaganda machine, circa 1991. If an Iraqi pilot had downed an American jet, I can assure you that Saddam would have never kept that quiet. Why should he? He never kept information like that quiet during the Iraq-Iran War. He disliked the Ayatollah, but he HATED President Bush. Anything that would show weakness on the Americans' part would have been exploited, and any man who caused said "weakness" would have been an instant Iraqi national hero.

I definitely didn't mean to come off as harsh in my last post, but as a note to everybody: if someone wants to make their case concerning a certain topic, on a website full of people who have actually worked in and around these birds, come with all of your guns loaded. This "second gunman on the grassy knoll" stuff just won't hack it.

It's not that I don't want to accept that a MiG downed one of our jets. It's happened before, and perhaps some day it may happen again, but I (as many others with knowledge on this incident) believe there just isn't enough concrete evidence in this case to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll be here all week. Be sure to tip your waitresses. Thank you very much!

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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