Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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tphuang

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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 16:14

PLA insiders say that air combat capability of Su-30 vs Su-35 is pretty big. Even aside from the new radar and better avionics, there are aerodynamic improvements as well as more powerful engine. Also, single pilot makes it lighter. It is possible that SU-30MKI could have ability reaching Su-35 if it gets Su-57 avionics.

But IAF should remember that China already has it's own version of Su-30 (J-16) which has made the same avionics upgrade and it's been in service since 2014. Su-35 shouldn't be what they get worried about. Lack of a 5th gen option should be.
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sferrin

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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 17:19

tphuang wrote:PLA insiders say that air combat capability of Su-30 vs Su-35 is pretty big. Even aside from the new radar and better avionics, there are aerodynamic improvements as well as more powerful engine. Also, single pilot makes it lighter. It is possible that SU-30MKI could have ability reaching Su-35 if it gets Su-57 avionics.

But IAF should remember that China already has it's own version of Su-30 (J-16) which has made the same avionics upgrade and it's been in service since 2014. Su-35 shouldn't be what they get worried about. Lack of a 5th gen option should be.


They could probably get F-35s as long as they weren't stupid enough to insist on tech transfer.
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 19:03

mixelflick wrote:Wouldn't it depend (F-15C vs E) on the mission?


IMO no, not much. I'll explain below.

mixelflick wrote:If it was me, I'd want to be in an F-15C. It has the best radar (assuming the latest, greatest AESA), superior acceleration and maneuverability to the E too.


Since when does the F-15C has a better and AESA radar? The F-15E also carries an AESA radar, the APG-82 which according to wikipedia:
The AN/APG-82(V)1 combines the processor of the APG-79 used on the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet with the antenna of the APG-63(V)3 AESA from the F-15C for the F-15E.[6] The new radar also includes a new cooling system and Radio Frequency Tunable Filters (RFTF). RFTF is designed to enable the radar and the electronic warfare hardware (jamming) to operate simultaneously without degrading each other.[7] The new radar is currently being installed in the F-15E under the Radar Modernization Program (RMP).[8] In 2009, the proposed APG-63(V)4 radar was designated APG-82(V)1.[9]


So it's a radar that combines the (much) more modern APG-79 processor with the antenna of the most advanced F-15C AESA radar (APG-63(V)3). So I would say that in terms of (AESA) radar, the F-15E should be more advanced than the F-15C, not otherwise.
The F-15E also has more powerful engines than the F-15C which should offset some agility disadvantage.
But and while the FAST CFTs somehow reduces the F-15E's agility, it gives something IMO much more important than "extra agility" which is having a (much) better range. This is an extremely important feature, even for Air-to-Air missions.

mixelflick wrote:But it's infinitely more capable vs. the aerial threat arrayed against it. Not sure about SAM's, but the E probably has the defensive countermeasures edge. I dunno.


Yes, the F-15E has a much better Electronic Defensive Suite (DEWS) which of course doesn't only give it an edge (compared to the F-15C) against SAM's but also against enemy fighter aircraft.
The F-15E can carry FLIR/EO pods which helps identifying ("VID") potentially hostile aircraft at long ranges.
The F-15E carries two crewmen which helps a lot when dealing with lots of info (remember the F-15 doesn't have that sensor fusion of the F-35, so a second crewman is extremely important here).

With all of this combined with all that was mentioned before, I fail to realize in how or in where the F-15C can be any better than the F-15E against enemy aircraft, apart from having a potentially slightly better agility (if any that is).


mixelflick wrote:Insofar as foreign customers, I think the choice of F-15SA, Quatar, Singapore etc is due to already having superior air superiority platforms. The Saudi's with their Typhoons, Quatar will also be flying Typhoons and Singapore with their SU-30MKM's. The Beagle derivatives are clearly there to be bomb trucks. If those countries didn't have their Typhoons, Flankers etc... things would probably be different.


About customers and all, all I have to say is that the F-15C was manufactured from 1979 to 1985, while the Japanese which are the only country that operates F-15's but doesn't operate the F-15E Strike Eagle, manufactured their F-15J's from 1981 to 1997 (and locally so). As a comparison, the US F-15E Strike Eagles were manufactured from 1985 to 2001 while in other countries the F-15E production continued post-2001 and if I'm not mistaken continues even today.

So from what I can see, no F-15C's (or other single seat Eagles) have been manufactured in the XXI century - Only F-15E's. IMO, this says it all.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 20:05

ricnunes wrote: I fail to realize in how or in where the F-15C can be any better than the F-15E against enemy aircraft, apart from having a potentially slightly better agility (if any that is).

Most of what you said is 100% true. However there is the above point that needs to be discussed.

The F-15C will have more than slightly better agility than the F-15E. In any given configuration the F-15E will weigh ~20,000lb more, between the added basic weight, CFT weight, and CFT fuel. This can be as much as a 40% increase in weight. They use the same wing. The C will always out-turn the E.

Also, once tanks are punched, an 8AAM Eagle has 800KVAS/2.5M placard speed limits. An 8AAM Mudhen has 660/1.4M placard speed limits. However, as you said, the Mudhen carries much more fuel and -229s at 1.4M burn less fuel than -220s at 2.0M so the Eagle may have a better dash but then it will be bingo and RTB while the Mudhen has the fuel to sit at 1.4M for quite a while.

As you said, the Radar and ECM suite of the Mudhen means it gives up nothing in the BVR arena. Only in a knife-fight would a "Golden Eagle" have a marked advantage against a Mudhen.
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 20:20

zero-one wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I dispute this. A few posts over several pages on this thread.

http://www.c-130.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... f&start=45


Great thread, I simply based my payload assessment on the published max take-off weight minus the published Empty weight.
the F-15E sits at 49,300 while the Su-34 is at a slightly higher 49,817. Negligible and I doubt these birds are even loaded up to their max take-off weights at all.

Interesting that strike fighters today have payload capacities bigger than most heavy bombers in World War 2. Probably why Heavy bombers have gone out of style. Only the US, Russia and China still operate them.


F-15E and Su-34 are apples to oranges. Su-34 look like fighter but IT ISN'T. It is mini tactical bomber which would rely on refueling to do long range tactical missions. That is why it have roomy cockpit with goods which you will not find in any two seat fighter, plus it have armor just because they could, there wasn't need for speed or agility (even though pilots say it can hold its ground against Su-27 in WVR thanks to excellent low speed aerodynamics) so putting armor wasn't problem and Sukhoi surely wanted to present it as Su-25 replacement now when Su-25 production line isn't in Russia.
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 20:56

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Most of what you said is 100% true. However there is the above point that needs to be discussed.

The F-15C will have more than slightly better agility than the F-15E. In any given configuration the F-15E will weigh ~20,000lb more, between the added basic weight, CFT weight, and CFT fuel. This can be as much as a 40% increase in weight. They use the same wing. The C will always out-turn the E.

Also, once tanks are punched, an 8AAM Eagle has 800KVAS/2.5M placard speed limits. An 8AAM Mudhen has 660/1.4M placard speed limits. However, as you said, the Mudhen carries much more fuel and -229s at 1.4M burn less fuel than -220s at 2.0M so the Eagle may have a better dash but then it will be bingo and RTB while the Mudhen has the fuel to sit at 1.4M for quite a while.

As you said, the Radar and ECM suite of the Mudhen means it gives up nothing in the BVR arena. Only in a knife-fight would a "Golden Eagle" have a marked advantage against a Mudhen.



Yes, I agree with your F-15C vs F-15E agility assessment sprstdlyscottsmn!

And of course I also agree that the F-15E advantages (over the F-15C) far offsets any agility advantage that the F-15C might have (over the F-15E).
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 21:01

milosh wrote:F-15E and Su-34 are apples to oranges. Su-34 look like fighter but IT ISN'T. It is mini tactical bomber which would rely on refueling to do long range tactical missions. That is why it have roomy cockpit with goods which you will not find in any two seat fighter, plus it have armor just because they could, there wasn't need for speed or agility (even though pilots say it can hold its ground against Su-27 in WVR thanks to excellent low speed aerodynamics) so putting armor wasn't problem and Sukhoi surely wanted to present it as Su-25 replacement now when Su-25 production line isn't in Russia.


Yes, here I agree as well.
Basically the closest to a western counterpart of the Su-34 would IMO be a F-111 with an hypothetical and expanded Air-to-Air capability.

Also IMO, the closest Russian counterpart to the F-15E would be the Su-30 (hence my "parallel" discussion of F-15CvsF-15E and Su-35vsSu-30).
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 22:35

ricnunes wrote:
Also IMO, the closest Russian counterpart to the F-15E would be the Su-30 (hence my "parallel" discussion of F-15CvsF-15E and Su-35vsSu-30).

I largely feel the same. Both are two seat multi-role versions of a single seat air-superiority platform. And in that sense, the F-15X is analogous to the Su-35S. Keeping the multi-role aspect but returning to single seat through more advanced avionics and systems.
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 22:38

milosh wrote:Sukhoi surely wanted to present it as Su-25 replacement now when Su-25 production line isn't in Russia.


Sukhoi has never presented su-34 (su-27ib) as su-25 replacement.. It was su-24m replacement..
As a su-25 replacement Sukhoi designed sh-90 project (t-12)..
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 23:16

babybat{}.net wrote:
milosh wrote:Sukhoi surely wanted to present it as Su-25 replacement now when Su-25 production line isn't in Russia.


Sukhoi has never presented su-34 (su-27ib) as su-25 replacement.. It was su-24m replacement..
As a su-25 replacement Sukhoi designed sh-90 project (t-12)..


What the F***?! I bet that just like its designer team that thing was supposed to run on Vodka too :mrgreen:

That, or the designer team were/are huge fans of Star Wars :roll:
Last edited by ricnunes on 15 Jan 2019, 12:25, edited 1 time in total.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post14 Jan 2019, 23:31

ricnunes wrote:What the F***?!


I understand your emotions, but in a fact it was a really interesting project =)
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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 00:24

I want one! ... I'm going to call it the ... Frogmouth!
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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 00:27

It even has the shape of Vodka. LOL.

Sometimes, one has to wonder what those Russians are thinking.

First that Pak-Fa, with its open engines just shouting : Shoot at me, shoot at me, shoot at me, and then this disaster.

Interesting? Yep, after enough Vodka, something like this become "interesting".
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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 00:38

vilters wrote:It even has the shape of Vodka. LOL.

Interesting? Yep, after enough Vodka, something like this become "interesting".


Sorry, I don't drink alcohol so can't discuss about vodka with you :oops:
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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 00:47

I think the old saying is true after all.

With enough "goods in the body" you see everything double. => That's when he drew that. :devil:
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