Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

blindpilot

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1158
  • Joined: 01 Mar 2013, 18:21
  • Location: Colorado

Unread post10 Jul 2018, 17:01

zero-one wrote: ..

Your only hope is to make it to the merge. The Su-57, among all Russian fighters give them the best chance to do that.


Again just to keep things in context .. I kind of agree that the SU-57 "might" find an F-22 at the merge ... but not for the reason stated.

Keep in mind if Russia marshals its entire fleet and the US and allies send theirs.

A flight of 4 SU-57's (all three of them) will be merging with 160 F-22's and F-35s. Hard to miss that when the sky is blackened ..

We're talking 40-1 here folks... I don't care if it's an X-Wing fighter ... good luck making it to the merge.

PS If you escort with SU-35s ... its only 6-1. so that flight of 4 will only have to handle 24 F-22s and 35s.

Let's wait and see what is happening in a decade or two. Right now it's blowing smoke. End of discussion.

MHO, Just for context
BP
Offline

wrightwing

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2918
  • Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 15:22

Unread post10 Jul 2018, 18:06

zero-one wrote:

Against a 4th gen no doubt. The problem is we're treating the Su-57 as just another 4th gen. It's not, They claim it is VLO, I doubt that, but at worst I think it is LO. So killing it "LONG BEFORE" it knows you're there may not apply.


No they don't. APA, BFA, RT, youtube fans, claim that. The Russians have never made such a claim, and the Indians have been critical of the RCS.
botsing wrote:In Red Flag they were killed by aircraft that were respawned, the F-35 just killed those aircraft and they were reactivated, not something that will happen in the real world. The area for Red Flag is also much smaller and confined than real world scenario's.

I've heard that before, but so far there has been no official statements to support that. And who ever said that every single WVR encounter resulted from re-spawned aggressors, maybe some,



I've listened to and read a lot about the losses. The 7 losses were from respawns, and the confusion over who was alive/dead, when multiple aircraft were in close proximity. Sensor fusion doesn't tell you who's back in play.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1731
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post11 Jul 2018, 12:01

wrightwing wrote:I've listened to and read a lot about the losses. The 7 losses were from respawns, and the confusion over who was alive/dead, when multiple aircraft were in close proximity. Sensor fusion doesn't tell you who's back in play.




In the 3:10 mark, the guy says they were seen visually passing by.
No mentioned of respawned airfraft what so ever.

Now hold on, im not saying that was a lie. What im saying is that, we don't have evidence that every single F-35 killed was from a respawned aircraft.

Furthermore, we don't have evidence that every single WVR encounter was from a respawned airplane
Offline

beepa

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 241
  • Joined: 05 Jan 2007, 22:36
  • Location: Aust.

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 04:34

Looks like someone is off to the salt mines....

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russia- ... m=referral
Offline

juretrn

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 364
  • Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 01:09
  • Location: Slovenia

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 06:35

beepa wrote:Looks like someone is off to the salt mines....

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russia- ... m=referral

I've seen some fanboys triggered HARD by that article.
It's fine to do hack pieces on the F-35, but don't you dare to do one on the Su-57!
Russia stronk
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 7505
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 12:33

LOL
Attachments
Custom Image 13072018192858.jpg
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2472
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 14:02

beepa wrote:Looks like someone is off to the salt mines....

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russia- ... m=referral


"The Su-57 is considered to be one of the best aircrafts produced in the world. Consequently, it does not make sense to speed up work on mass-producing the fifth-generation aircraft."

Um, so they built something so good... they're not going to field it? That happens all the time I guess, LOL.

I have to hand it to F-16 net members here - they saw through the SU-57 hype and painted a realistic picture of what was really going on. It never was going to have the stealth. By the time the new engines are ready, we'll be fielding ADVENT and other much more advanced versions of the F-119 and F-135, and PCA will be right around the corner. In many ways the failure of PAK FA signals the death spiral of Russian military aviation, at least fighter - wise. They never really did recover from the collapse of the USSR, and on some levels I think that's sad.

I will hand it to their engineers for all of their groundbreaking aircraft over the years. I think the Mig-25, 31, SU-27 and newer Flanker derivatives inspired greatness. Even the PAK FA is interesting, albeit too many key systems (engines, avionics, weapons, stealth) just never came together. I don't know where I'd put the Mig 29 on that list. Great airframe and performance but lousy pilot interface, range and at the end of the day.... combat record.

It's doubtful foreign orders can carry them now. Why buy a Mig-35 or even advanced Flanker, now that they're nothing more than flying bulls eye's...
Offline

wrightwing

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2918
  • Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 15:22

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 20:50

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:I've listened to and read a lot about the losses. The 7 losses were from respawns, and the confusion over who was alive/dead, when multiple aircraft were in close proximity. Sensor fusion doesn't tell you who's back in play.




In the 3:10 mark, the guy says they were seen visually passing by.
No mentioned of respawned airfraft what so ever.

Now hold on, im not saying that was a lie. What im saying is that, we don't have evidence that every single F-35 killed was from a respawned aircraft.

Furthermore, we don't have evidence that every single WVR encounter was from a respawned airplane

That's one source. I've read/watched/listened to multiple sources.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 5666
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 22:11

beepa wrote:Looks like someone is off to the salt mines....

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russia- ... m=referral



CALLED IT.

Only 8 years ago all the komrade fanbois were telling us that Russia was going to show us how 5th gen was done...

HAHA
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 7505
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post13 Jul 2018, 23:41

Gotta credit the Indian AF and their long laundry list of complaints about the jet that Russia tried and failed to BS their way out of.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2472
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post14 Jul 2018, 20:52

Interestingly enough, I just queried an F-35 pilot about the PAK FA at the Great New England Airshow today...

His reaction was (borderline laughing), "I heard they canned it. Doesn't surprise me. Developing 5th gen stealth planes isn't easy...". Now I added that the plan was for a dozen pre-production models, but he basically waved it off as a non issue. Said China concerns him much more given they have a lot of intel on Russia and what they're capable of. China, not so much. I asked for his opinion as to the rumor Indian SU-30MKI's detected the J-20 and he said it wouldn't surprise him. Said a lot of what China is doing is trying to copy us, and the jury was still out.

In other news, I spoke to F-15 and 16 pilots who apparently aren't really gearing up for Russian Flankers and Mig-29's as much as they are Chinese J-10's, and J-11's. Both pilots were throwing a lot of praise on the AIM-120D and said it gave them the necessary punch to deal with some of the longer ranged Chinese air to air weapons now being fielded.

Anyway, I thought his perspective on the PAK FA was interesting. It seems only the Russians are looking at this as a viable, long term solution that (some day) will be fielded...
Offline

usnvo

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 101
  • Joined: 01 Jul 2015, 18:51

Unread post15 Jul 2018, 03:29

lrrpf52 wrote:The GE F101 was what the B-1A was engineered around.

The F-14 prototypes and program were engineered around the Pratt & Whitney TF30. As bad as the TF30 was, it was the first AB turbofan fighter engine available at the time. The Navy wanted to upgrade to the GEF101 Derivative Engine in later serial production of the planned F-14B.

It was never in the cards for the F-14A, never planned to be when the program was conceptualized and funded in the late 1960s.



The F-14A, although using the TF30 engine for development and the initial production run, was always planned to be fitted with the F401-400 (the Navy version of the F100). After the F100 had so many developmental issues, the Navy cancelled their side of the program and stayed with the TF30. Once the reliability issues had been worked out on the F100, there were two choices available and the Navy went with the F101FDE/F110. The plane was always designed for a more powerful engine and if the F401-400 hadn't been such a disaster (or there had been an alternative at the time), it would have been the engine for the F-14A.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2472
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post15 Jul 2018, 13:46

Fantastic write up, very well done.

I guess the biggest indicator was that we had the F-119 and F-120 flying in the late 80's/early 90's, where the AL-41 meant for PAK FA just got off the ground. Sounds like it's going to be another 5-10 years before that's ready and knowing their claims,
might take even longer.

That's an ENORMOUS lead, any way you slice it. They have some fantastic aerodynamic designs, very talented pilots but fall down in virtually every other area. It would be interesting for their aerospace engineers to come over and work for us. A more robust airframe design designed for rough field operation and supermaneuverability coupled with America's existing know how in other areas should result in some seriously scary fighter designs.

Imagine an SU-57 flying with American engines, avionics and truly VLO. Would be an incredible machine...
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2472
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post15 Jul 2018, 14:20

"This is why it makes more sense to have the discussion about China and their large Air Force inventory, plus the aggressive development of the J-20 and J-31 systems. Again, they are trying to play catch up with at least 2 decades distance between us and them, even with the stolen TDP in their hands for early F-35 developmental models."

I was at the Great New England Airshow yesterday, talking to an F-16C pilot. Asked him what he thought of PAK FA/SU-57 and he just chuckled. Literally laughed it off and said I heard they cancelled it. Said it wouldn't really surprise him if they did.

OTOH, I inquired about the J-10 and asked what he though about it. "Scary", he said. No because of what we necessarily know about it, but what we don't know. He said we have a lot of info as to how the Russian birds fly and fight, not so much on the Chinese. Said they train to fight J-10's and J-11's. I thought that was interesting..

As for the J-20, he just shrugged his shoulders and said it looked to him like a copy of some of our designs. I didn't think that was really fair, except perhaps for the J-20's canopy. To me, it much more closely resembles the Mig I.42 and I.44. In any case, he was a lot more concerned with the Chinese vs. Russians. I asked if he was flying with the AIM-120D. He said yes and it was about time, given the need to out stick the Chinese PL-12 and PL-15. Both of these were big concerns..
Offline

wrightwing

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2918
  • Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 15:22

Unread post15 Jul 2018, 17:18

mixelflick wrote:Fantastic write up, very well done.

I guess the biggest indicator was that we had the F-119 and F-120 flying in the late 80's/early 90's, where the AL-41 meant for PAK FA just got off the ground. Sounds like it's going to be another 5-10 years before that's ready and knowing their claims,
might take even longer.

That's an ENORMOUS lead, any way you slice it. They have some fantastic aerodynamic designs, very talented pilots but fall down in virtually every other area. It would be interesting for their aerospace engineers to come over and work for us. A more robust airframe design designed for rough field operation and supermaneuverability coupled with America's existing know how in other areas should result in some seriously scary fighter designs.

Imagine an SU-57 flying with American engines, avionics and truly VLO. Would be an incredible machine...


Our engineers are perfectly capable of designing a "Russian" aircraft. That's not what they've been asked to design, though. They design based upon the requirements/specifications that the USAF/USN/USMC have given them.
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests