F-22s in an anti-ship role

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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e-dog

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Unread post10 Sep 2012, 14:03

count_to_10 wrote:
tacf-x wrote:I'm pretty sure there's a big difference between blinding a missile and initiating all out structural failure of an aircraft wing via rapidly applying a heat load to the wing fuel tank.

If you can blind the missile, you can blind the aircraft. More, there is reason to believe that optical filters will make it impossible to blind a missile without destroying it. Further, you have a lot more burn time to take down a fighter than you have to take down a missile closing in on you.
When the long range missile is made obsolete, it will be in favor of even longer range weapons, not for a return to gun fighting.


In a hypothetical situation, what do you think is the survivability of a flight of F-22's be against a Dutch "Zeven Provincien" Class anti air "Frigate" (LCF)?

For as far as I understand, the LCF has 2 different radar systems regarding search and track of airborne objects and fire control.
One is called APAR which operates on X-band and the other is called SMART-L Which mainly operates on the L-band.

What would the survivability of lets say a flight of 4 Raptors be if they were to be engaged by an LCF?
I find it hard to believe that Raptors will be outmatched against a few semi-active Mach 4 missiles.

Also, will the Raptor not be able to overload those missiles' own radars/receivers with its EW capabilities?

If the Raptor's survivability is low in this scenario, then how in the world could it survive in a much more harsh environment in let's say Russia, going against double-digit SAM's coupled with much more powerful ground based radar systems?


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Unread post10 Sep 2012, 15:17

e-dog wrote:
In a hypothetical situation, what do you think is the survivability of a flight of F-22's be against a Dutch "Zeven Provincien" Class anti air "Frigate" (LCF)?

For as far as I understand, the LCF has 2 different radar systems regarding search and track of airborne objects and fire control.
One is called APAR which operates on X-band and the other is called SMART-L Which mainly operates on the L-band.

What would the survivability of lets say a flight of 4 Raptors be if they were to be engaged by an LCF?
I find it hard to believe that Raptors will be outmatched against a few semi-active Mach 4 missiles.

Also, will the Raptor not be able to overload those missiles' own radars/receivers with its EW capabilities?

If the Raptor's survivability is low in this scenario, then how in the world could it survive in a much more harsh environment in let's say Russia, going against double-digit SAM's coupled with much more powerful ground based radar systems?


IT--


Stealthy aircraft aren't invisible. At some distance from a given radar, they are detectable, but their advantage over conventional aircraft, is that there are much wider gaps in coverage. This is where tactics come into play. No F-22/35 pilot is going to fly directly over a SAM threat. They will remain outside of the weapon engagement zone, of any emitting target, while engaging from a safe stand off distance.
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Unread post11 Sep 2012, 04:16

e-dog wrote:In a hypothetical situation, what do you think is the survivability of a flight of F-22's be against a Dutch "Zeven Provincien" Class anti air "Frigate" (LCF)?


Why would an F-22 go against a "Zeven Provincien" Class frigate in the first place?

(Hypothetical scenario in a war with the Netherlands) F-22 pilot from a safe distance away: "Let's see, detected a "Zeven Provincien" frigate there...so I'll go around here. Hehehe...never saw me coming or going." Now can proceed on with objective(s):

A) Drop SDBs or GBU-32 JDAMs on time critical target(s) or

B) Wipe out entire RNLAF over their own country.
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Unread post12 Sep 2012, 01:14

wrightwing wrote:
e-dog wrote:
In a hypothetical situation, what do you think is the survivability of a flight of F-22's be against a Dutch "Zeven Provincien" Class anti air "Frigate" (LCF)?

For as far as I understand, the LCF has 2 different radar systems regarding search and track of airborne objects and fire control.
One is called APAR which operates on X-band and the other is called SMART-L Which mainly operates on the L-band.

What would the survivability of lets say a flight of 4 Raptors be if they were to be engaged by an LCF?
I find it hard to believe that Raptors will be outmatched against a few semi-active Mach 4 missiles.

Also, will the Raptor not be able to overload those missiles' own radars/receivers with its EW capabilities?

If the Raptor's survivability is low in this scenario, then how in the world could it survive in a much more harsh environment in let's say Russia, going against double-digit SAM's coupled with much more powerful ground based radar systems?


IT--


Stealthy aircraft aren't invisible. At some distance from a given radar, they are detectable, but their advantage over conventional aircraft, is that there are much wider gaps in coverage. This is where tactics come into play. No F-22/35 pilot is going to fly directly over a SAM threat. They will remain outside of the weapon engagement zone, of any emitting target, while engaging from a safe stand off distance.


Scorpion1alpha wrote:
e-dog wrote:In a hypothetical situation, what do you think is the survivability of a flight of F-22's be against a Dutch "Zeven Provincien" Class anti air "Frigate" (LCF)?


Why would an F-22 go against a "Zeven Provincien" Class frigate in the first place?

(Hypothetical scenario in a war with the Netherlands) F-22 pilot from a safe distance away: "Let's see, detected a "Zeven Provincien" frigate there...so I'll go around here. Hehehe...never saw me coming or going." Now can proceed on with objective(s):

A) Drop SDBs or GBU-32 JDAMs on time critical target(s) or

B) Wipe out entire RNLAF over their own country.


Thank you both for responding to my question!
I know stealth does not mean complete EM invisibility and what some of it's advantages are but how much does that mean in terms of survivability in different roles than air to air, going up against a different type of opponent?

Also, I definitely agree that no Raptor pilot would want to do anything to increase its chances of being detected and yes, I am very well aware that only a few Raptors can take down Holland's entire air force with ease... Which is pretty funny imo.

How about taking-down/disabling ESSM's fired at them? Maybe I messed up my post and didn't really clarify what I was asking so I'll give it another shot.

IF a Raptor is hypothetically detected within a realistic range of say 70-80KM and gets a *load of Mach 4+ ESSM's fired at it, will it be able to use its own radar to fry the living daylights out of those missiles' guidance systems and survive or is even the F-22 no match for an advanced anti-air platform such as the dutch LCF ("Air-defense Command Frigate")?


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southernphantom

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Unread post12 Sep 2012, 01:46

The range of an ESSM is around 50km, and the APAR AESA tracking/guidance radar on a De Zeven Provincien-class will most likely be unable to detect an F-22 at meaningful range. Assuming the projected 50mi/80km range of a GBU-32 launched by a supersonic F-22 is correct, the Raptor will be able to engage the frigate before it can defend itself.

Granted, the SMART-L search/surveillance radar may be able to detect the Raptor flight, but the ship will not be able to engage as ESSM is SARH in its terminal phase.
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Unread post12 Sep 2012, 02:03

southernphantom wrote:The range of an ESSM is around 50km, and the APAR AESA tracking/guidance radar on a De Zeven Provincien-class will most likely be unable to detect an F-22 at meaningful range. Assuming the projected 50mi/80km range of a GBU-32 launched by a supersonic F-22 is correct, the Raptor will be able to engage the frigate before it can defend itself.

Granted, the SMART-L search/surveillance radar may be able to detect the Raptor flight, but the ship will not be able to engage as ESSM is SARH in its terminal phase.

I wonder if L band radars could narrow down location well enough to direct a missile with an IR terminal phase close enough to get a lock.
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Unread post12 Sep 2012, 02:11

I don't think it'd be able to "fry" their radar, but there's other ways to defeat a missile electronically, which basically aren't talked about publicly very much (the secret world of Electronic Warfare). Plus ESSM's semi-active Radar homing, meaning the engagement range is going to be much smaller than the detection range because the relatively small missile seeker has to be able to pick up a meaningful reflection of the guidance radar.

You also have to account for how the F-22 passes through the the engagement envelope; if it hits the edge of the "bubble" at Mach 1.6 at 50,000+ feet (15,240m), those missiles are never going to reach it. Flying high and fast is a great way to shrink the No-Escape Zone (NEZ) of any missile, especially ones that by definition are fired from about sea level...

Basically, the F-22 can easily avoid getting within a dangerous distance of the ship, and probably has a decent chance to escape even if fired upon.
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Unread post13 Sep 2012, 15:49

Could somebody explain why it is difficult for a Mach 4 semi-actively guided missile to take down a Mach 1.6 Raptor when all the necessary information is being fed to it by APAR/SMART-L? To my understanding (and I am pretty sure that I am wrong), in order to electronically defeat such a missile, one must take out the radar(s) that are feeding the missile data through a link-up.

Also, what does SAHR mean? Search And.... ?

Moving on... I've had this discussion many times with a friend of mine who serves on Holland's flagship which is an LCF and it always boils down to the same.
He claims that the SMART-L Radar system, coupled with APAR are among the most advanced in the world and are able to detect and track a "Stealth missile" RCS class between 80 and 92 km depending on the atmospheric conditions, which to him translate to roughly the same detection range for the F-22.

After that "it's a cake walk", shooting off SM2's and ESSM's while the CIWS (Goakleeper) system takes down any threats the Raptor might throw at them (Like the GBU-32?).

He claims that a few years back when Holland and the USA were holding an exercise together, a bunch of F-22's were thrown into the mix to take down carrier-launched F-18's and he also claimed that those Raptors were detected by the SMART-L about 80km+ out (Don't remember how far exactly).

Does this make any sense to you guys because I don't know what to make of it.
To me it very hard to accept that hypothetically, F-22's will be target practice against a ship, costing barely 4 times as much. Especially knowing that Skunk Works has had decades of experience in stealth and the US has spend a hell of a lot more money on the F-22 in terms of R&D than we have spent on the LCF class.

I apologize in advance for my "noobness". I know that some of you are probably face-palming right now :p

This is going to be my last post/question in this thread regarding this topic. I don't want to "hijack" this thread.
I am sorry in advance if this has upset anybody...


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Unread post13 Sep 2012, 23:08

L-band radar typically can't give position information accurately enough to guide a missile to a target, and a missile that travels two or three times faster than it's target may still not reach that target before it's fuel gives out.
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Unread post14 Sep 2012, 00:52

Well the F-22 probably wouldn't have a very good chance to destroy the LCF unless it gets more anti-surface weapons cleared for use, like SLAM-ER. The F-22 is really not for killing ships, it's for getting air superiority so other airplanes can kill ships (and anything else).

SARH is Sem-Active Radar Homing, meaning the missile is guided by picking up the reflection of radio waves from the radar back on the ship (or aircraft). It's obsolete as far as air-to-air missiles go, but the basic problem that you have to keep the target illuminated all the time is less of a problem for a ship than an airplane (aircraft are much more dependent on maneuvering to survive).

Detection isn't the problem, it's guiding the missiles to the target, and that radar is operating at a frequency at which the F-22 is stealthier, in addition the basic fact that the comparative tiny antennae on the seekers are going to have a really hard time picking up the reflections off a stealthy airplane.
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Unread post14 Sep 2012, 01:49

e-dog wrote:Could somebody explain why it is difficult for a Mach 4 semi-actively guided missile to take down a Mach 1.6 Raptor when all the necessary information is being fed to it by APAR/SMART-L?

IT--


Also it is important to remember basic physics with missiles. People often seem to forget about gravity. The range quote for a missile is not going to be anywhere near the same at 50,000 feet as it is at say 30,000. It takes the missile longer to get to the altitude, it uses up more energy (fuel) to get there and once it gets there it has less fuel to keep moving and chasing. If it uses control fins it has thinner air to contend with as well and won't turn as well.

Altitude and speed are not easy things to contend with from a defensive standpoint.
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Unread post14 Sep 2012, 02:34

The conversation is really getting off topic in terms of the "F-22 in dogfights", but I'll entertain and expand on this point once more.

Prinz_Eugn wrote:Well the F-22 probably wouldn't have a very good chance to destroy the LCF unless it gets more anti-surface weapons cleared for use, like SLAM-ER. The F-22 is really not for killing ships, it's for getting air superiority so other airplanes can kill ships (and anything else).


Correct that the F-22 was never designed to go against and destroy ships. Definately not it’s role nor responsibility.

However, with it’s secondary A2G role, what it can do (if it ever needs to) is attack and render a ship ineffective. By that I mean the F-22 could use it’s SDBs or GBU-32s (more preferable as it packs a bigger punch and collaterial damage is what you want) to attack certain areas of the ship to render it ineffective and thus taken out of the fight.

In using the "Zeven Provincien" Class frigate from the earlier example, a high flying, supercruising Raptor(s) could program it’s 32s to target the frigate’s various radar arrays on it’s superstructure. This would effectively render the ship blind. Could also target it’s VLS and Sea Sparrow Launchers to render it impotent (ignore the 5-inch gun, .50 cals, 7.62s and the Phalanx-like CIWS as they’ll never reach the F-22). Now, did the F-22 “destroy” the Zeven Provincien meaning sinking it? No. Did the F-22 just effectively taken the ship out of the fight and made basically useless? You bet. If the Zeven Provincien were the first line of defense, the F-22 would have just kicked down that door and now follow-on strike packages that would consist of F-15Es, F-16s, F-18s etc could fly on by over the Zeven Provincien frigate(s) to destroy the evil Dutch. J/K :)

Again, this is just an example of what the F-22 could do. It’s unique attributes makes it well suited to not only kick-down-the-door over any contested airspace, but in the same configuration will also do what it does best on the same mission, knocking down any opposing fighter that happens to be flying.
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Unread post14 Sep 2012, 06:22

The post makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the US use F-22's as "red air" against F-18's and somehow involve a Dutch Frigate in the process? What other acft/ships were involved? No Dutch F-16's? A lonely carrier with no support group? Am I missing something here? Also, if such an exercise existed, why are we only hearing about it now?
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Unread post15 Sep 2012, 12:26

Thank you all for the great posts! So even though the F-22's role is mainly air dominance, IF a Raptor squadron equipped with SDB's would be given the order to engage an LCF, they will probably be able to disable it's offensive and defensive capabilities relatively easily. Won't CIWS take care of SDB's? From what I understand (And most of this has been explained to me by somebody serving on an LCF) the goalkeeper system and APAR-Smart-L combo are superior to Phalanx and most US sea based radar systems.


cywolf32 wrote:The post makes no sense whatsoever. Why would the US use F-22's as "red air" against F-18's and somehow involve a Dutch Frigate in the process? What other acft/ships were involved? No Dutch F-16's? A lonely carrier with no support group? Am I missing something here? Also, if such an exercise existed, why are we only hearing about it now?


It was in 2009. I'll copy a part of a post I made about on another forum regarding this to answer your question.


Here's the story.

The Netherlands sent a (couple of) Naval Vessel(s) to the USA for the 9/11 ceremony in NYC this year, I dont know if it was before or after the ceremony, probably after but the USAF, USN and dutch Navy held a small exercise.
The dutch ship participating in the exercise was a "Zeven Provincien Class" Anti Air Frigate (LCF) (A friend of mine was stationed there).

The Situation was: a Nimitz class + the dutch LCF vs 2 US Destroyers, 1 Frigate 1 Submarine and 2 F-22 Raptors.

I'm gonna make this story short. Basically what happened was, the F-22's mission was to establish air dominance and defend the fleet from the Hornets. They downed 20+ F-18's from the Nimitz Class (I don't know if they were Super Hornets or not) but what's really astonishing is that they were detected by the dutch SMART-L and APAR 150 Miles out (Still not identified of course but they were classified as fast movers).
Near the end of the exercise, the pilots were ordered to engage the LCF because they weren't really beating the OpFor.
They failed at destroying the LCF. Both raptors got shot down but a couple of gun hits were recorded from the flight lead.
A total of 4 ESSM's were fired by the LCF, 2 of them were rendered useless but the other 2 did make simulated hits on the F-22's.
I still don't know how they established a lock on the Raptors. Thermal? Radar?
This is about everything I can tell you guys/girls right now.
So what do you think?

To be honest this scares me a little. If a dutch, naval based radar system can detect the F-22 then how about much more high powered land based radars?


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Unread post15 Sep 2012, 13:24

Supposedly the F-22s were downed by ESSMs? Well, if they got close enough to hit the frigate with their 20mm cannon, they deserved to be.. what a strange story.
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