A New Engine?

All about the Pratt & Whitney F135 and the (cancelled) General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136
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1st503rdsgt

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Unread post18 Sep 2012, 15:43

General Electric and Pratt & Whitney have been selected over Rolls-Royce for the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory’s Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program to mature fuel-efficient, high-thrust powerplants for post-2020 Lockheed Martin F-35 upgrades and sixth-generation combat aircraft...

The 48-month AETD has four goals. The first is to design a new combat-aircraft engine with 25% lower thrust-specific fuel consumption, but 5% more military power and 10% higher maximum thrust than the Pratt F135 now powering the F-35...

“We will take that engine through preliminary design review,” Reed says. The engine must be sized to fit in the F-35 with “only modest modifications,” he says.


http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 15.xml&p=1

So... their trying again?
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maus92

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Unread post18 Sep 2012, 16:40

1st503rdsgt wrote:
General Electric and Pratt & Whitney have been selected over Rolls-Royce for the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory’s Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program to mature fuel-efficient, high-thrust powerplants for post-2020 Lockheed Martin F-35 upgrades and sixth-generation combat aircraft...

The 48-month AETD has four goals. The first is to design a new combat-aircraft engine with 25% lower thrust-specific fuel consumption, but 5% more military power and 10% higher maximum thrust than the Pratt F135 now powering the F-35...

“We will take that engine through preliminary design review,” Reed says. The engine must be sized to fit in the F-35 with “only modest modifications,” he says.


http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 15.xml&p=1

So... their trying again?


Only way to get more range while maintaining the shape.

Bogdan also noted in his brief yesterday that competition was good. While he was talking about F-35 sustainment, why not apply it to advanced powerplants.
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megasun

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Unread post18 Sep 2012, 17:06

wow, last time I heard about AETD/ADVENT, it was GE and Rolls in the competition.
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Unread post18 Sep 2012, 18:31

Looks like Pratt's decision to continue spending on inhouse development of their engine tech after losing out on,ADVENT has paid off.. hope,RR does the same for their military offerings.
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hobo

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Unread post18 Sep 2012, 21:50

These new engines are a big deal.

If they meet spec they would allow an F-35 to have dramatically longer range and/or time on station. They would reduce fuel costs for F-35 operators. They would also offer higher thrust/performance.

The performance increase would be more than a quick glance at the spec sheet would suggest as well.

F-35s with more efficient engines could fly with smaller fuel loads, improving power to weight ratios when other factors were held equal. An F-35C that needed a smaller fuel reserve for carrier operations could increase its bring-back, etc etc.

This is a lot bigger deal than simply carrying more fuel via conformal or drop tanks.
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Unread post18 Sep 2012, 23:49

This also has some maint aspects. When running in the higher by-pass mode less air is crammed down the core. Lowering the pressure ratios on the core. Less air in the core, less pressure, less fuel, lower temps. Peace time and training sorties will put less stress on the entire engine, and save fuel.

Question for TEG... Didn't the J58 do something like this? "Bypass by air withdrawal" in Supersonic flight? Bleeding air from the compressor directly to the A/B at high speed? But not sure about subsonic flight.
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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 00:03

Hope this new engine will benefit the F-35B also? Perhaps more complications with F-35B air frame and LiftFan may not make any benefit possible?
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megasun

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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 00:53

What is the current status of ADVENT project?
Is there any real number of efficiency demonstrated yet?
There must be some result before they plan the next step, I think.
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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 03:39

Apologies if this had been posted previously but this seems to be the right thread ..



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ar-374283/


FARNBOROUGH: Pratt to test new adaptive fan F135 variant next year

Pratt & Whitney hopes to test a new adaptive fan variant of its F135 afterburning turbofan in the first quarter of 2013, company officials say.

"We think that'll be a game-changer going forward," says Bill Gostic, P&W vice-president for advanced programmes and technology. Combined with a new very high pressure ratio core, the prototype forms the basis of P&W's entrant into the US Air Force Research Laboratory's adaptive engine technology development (AETD) programme.

With its new prototype, P&W hopes to knock out one of the two incumbent engine-makers developing the US Air Force's ADaptive Versatile ENgine Technology (ADVENT) engine. If everything goes according the company's plans, P&W will supplant either Rolls-Royce or General Electric on AETD - which is a follow-on to ADVENT, says P&W military engines chief Bennett Croswell.
- more at the
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archeman

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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 04:29

"We think that'll be a game-changer going forward," says Bill Gostic, P&W vice-president for advanced programmes and technology. Combined with a new very high pressure ratio core, the prototype forms the basis of P&W's entrant into the US Air Force Research Laboratory's adaptive engine technology development (AETD) programme.


Doesn't sound like Pratt is moving to lower the temperatures with the new 'very high pressure ratio core'.
Just a guess but it may be that they weighed the benefits of more power vs lower IR signature and put there bets down on technology that can be applied to the civilian market someday.
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aceshigh

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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 15:46

Very interesting. Who decides whether this promising technology is allowed into the civilian marked and end up in the new Chinese fighters?
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megasun

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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 22:40

Civil engine will be quite different from military ones.
You can't get a technology just by getting the product.
Getting the product may help to develop same technology of your own, but do you really want to ban such technology to civil market?
Whatever security measures you take, copiers always take less effort than inventors, as they already know which way may work, and don't need to try on other directions as inventors have to.
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Unread post19 Sep 2012, 23:10

archeman wrote:
"We think that'll be a game-changer going forward," says Bill Gostic, P&W vice-president for advanced programmes and technology. Combined with a new very high pressure ratio core, the prototype forms the basis of P&W's entrant into the US Air Force Research Laboratory's adaptive engine technology development (AETD) programme.


Doesn't sound like Pratt is moving to lower the temperatures with the new 'very high pressure ratio core'.
Just a guess but it may be that they weighed the benefits of more power vs lower IR signature and put there bets down on technology that can be applied to the civilian market someday.

Actually, the higher the pressure ratio in the core, the lower the exhaust temperature can be (adiabatic expansion). So long as the core is properly insulated and cooled, I don't think it posses a problem for IR LO.
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archeman

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Unread post20 Sep 2012, 19:05

count_to_10 wrote:
archeman wrote:
"We think that'll be a game-changer going forward," says Bill Gostic, P&W vice-president for advanced programmes and technology. Combined with a new very high pressure ratio core, the prototype forms the basis of P&W's entrant into the US Air Force Research Laboratory's adaptive engine technology development (AETD) programme.


Doesn't sound like Pratt is moving to lower the temperatures with the new 'very high pressure ratio core'.
Just a guess but it may be that they weighed the benefits of more power vs lower IR signature and put there bets down on technology that can be applied to the civilian market someday.

Actually, the higher the pressure ratio in the core, the lower the exhaust temperature can be (adiabatic expansion). So long as the core is properly insulated and cooled, I don't think it posses a problem for IR LO.



I take your point Count210 but I was thinking (if not typing) of the heat of the exhaust plume itself and not the engine parts.
If speaking only of the engine parts, yes it is possible to keep the exhaust nozzle feathers insulated by cooler streams of airflow.

Do we agree that a higher core pressure (assuming a constant intake air volume) will produce an overall hotter exhaust plume metal bits excluded?

I should point out I don't work in that field and have only a layman's understanding of the underlying science, but in every other science I have worked with, when you apply higher pressure to a constant volume, you're going to have manage resulting higher heat associated to that higher pressure.
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Unread post20 Sep 2012, 20:17

So the plan is to develop a F-135 replacement engine next year, test on 1st quarter 2013, and this is the 1st goal out of 4, in a 4-year long AETD project.
Isn't that too fast? Current F-135 engine hasn't been used much, or built many yet.
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