F-35B UK SRVL info - Updated when new/old info available

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quicksilver

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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 18:43

spazsinbad wrote:Good SIM Pilot Views of SRVL Approaches plus other GUFF.

F-35B and QEC integration testing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKbFb9Mln18



Excellent video. I noted a couple things in no particular order of significance --

1) The change in lift fan rpm upon commencement of the descent.
2) Use of the command speed function (note "CMD" above the airspeed circle on the left side at 1:01) with 64kts (calibrated) selected (at least at the point I could see it).
3) Touchdown at 65 kts calibrated and 53 kts GS at about the 650' mark with rollout of about 300' to the 350 mark.
4) A great look at what the propulsion system is doing with ETR (Engine Thrust Request) as well as fan and main engine nozzle angles during the approach and after touchdown.
Last edited by quicksilver on 13 Oct 2018, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post13 Oct 2018, 18:47

Thanks for looking at detail - bin busy so I'll look again for all those clues - yes engine noise is good to hear in the sim.
Role of simulator hailed in preparing pilots for flying new fighter
30 Oct 2017 Iain Lynn

"...RAF test pilot Squadron Leader Andy Edgell has been using the simulator, featuring a replica cockpit on a moving platform and domed screens, to train in ahead of the trials next year. The 37-year-old, when quizzed on the facility's importance, said it is a "critical piece of the puzzle" regarding their preparations.

"This simulator is by far the most realistic simulator that I have ever been in. "You sometimes forget that it is not real," he told the Press Association. "Sometimes your heart rate increases on some of the manoeuvres that we are performing, some of the more challenging conditions that we are flying in. "You genuinely feel as though you are in the real environment. Without the sim... we would be going significantly less prepared....

...Sqn Ldr Edgell said it is a "fantastic capability", adding: "We are landing on the back of the carrier whilst moving forwards. It is an interesting challenge. "Not something the Harrier Jump Jet was capable of, he said the F-35 and Queen Elizabeth class carrier together now produce a system where a jet can land with forward speed, without the need for an arresting hook or cable. "I appreciate it might not be exciting for all, but certainly for testers, test pilots and test engineers, this is experimental stuff, this is fascinating," Sqn Ldr Edgell said of the "incredibly complex and detailed work"....

Photo: "Royal Air Force Squadron Leader Andy Edgell, the UK's lead test pilot, using a specialist fighter jet simulator at BAE Systems in Warton" http://www.lep.co.uk/webimage/1.8831018 ... /image.jpg


Source: https://www.lep.co.uk/news/politics/rol ... -1-8831020
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SRVLsimPilotApproachCVF.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 00:41

A screenshot from 1min 1sec from video above. I'll look to zoom in to vHUD view if good enough. Click the JPG then click again to zoom in. Top Left of ZOOM we see CMD DFP approach 64 KIAS closing speed 55 KIAS. The BTM Left F-35 ICON reminds me of the DOG Trumpet MAMBO LOGO: https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/0f2 ... d4261d3396
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F-35BsimWartonStartSRVL.jpg
F-35BsimWartonStartSRVLvHUD.png
MamboDogTrumpet.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 01:10

Nice screen capture. What tells us that is at 1:01 because that is clearly further along in the approach? Perhaps you grabbed the wrong video whilst you were singing along with your dog?

You can see the CMD speed earlier at 82KCAS with 64 'commanded' while the jet is still decelerating. I had to watch it full screen and dynamically to see it. Doesnt stay visible long because of blue v white background in the visual image.

You might also note the difference between the aircraft FPM/VV at ~4-4.5 degrees while the jet is driving to the SRVV and the DFP-referenced glide path of something steeper. Note also how close SRVV/DFP reference is to Bedford array.
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zerion

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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 16:25

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spazsinbad

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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 16:53

Thanks for that 'zerion'- looks like a doddle - a walk in the park. :mrgreen: Of course there will be other factors to consider....

HMS Queen Elizabeth First F 35B SRVL 14 Oct 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3BSdHh6ewY


__________________________________________________________________________________

F-35 pilot makes history with revolutionary way of landing jet on board HMS Queen Elizabeth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP0rUkDz_Fg

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 19:32

Damn... that's just cheating...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 21:59

That seemed slower and perhaps more hesitant than I expected but conversely it hardly used any horizontal runway. Could the Marines adopt this ?
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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 23:13

marsavian wrote:That seemed slower and perhaps more hesitant than I expected but conversely it hardly used any horizontal runway. Could the Marines adopt this ?

"Could the Marines adopt this?" Sadly there are two threads about such matters with probably lots more in asides in other threads. However this thread should have some discussion about WHY the USMC won't adopt the SRVL. Anticipating this very question again (despite other discussions) a comparo between CVF & LHA was made to visually show why probably the USMC are not interested - after all they required the KPP for VL and they have it with added bring back weight bonus most likely (such details are not known by us however the KPP has been met). Some say the USMC will find out all about SRVL if they train for it when they go aboard QE in a year or so. HOWEVER even though we have seen one of the FIRST SRVLs we don't know if the test pilots will think it is a good idea in different conditions so that the SRVL is signed off for the general use of UK F-35Bs OR whether or NOT the UK put SRVLs in their bag o'tricks because they may be well satisfied with the bringback for VLs in their extreme conditions (still to be decided also). Patience about such matters is good.

DECKs: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=402861&hilit=comparo#p402861 WITH decks below: download/file.php?id=28469

The USMC was interested in SRVL when they perhaps were going to operate their F-35B ONLY force on CVNs - but not now.

Image
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Oct 2018, 23:29

Aviation history made on board HMS Queen Elizabeth
14 Oct 2018 SaveTheRoyalNavy

"...The aircraft touched down 755 feet back from the end of the carrier’s ski jump, the jet came to a complete standstill at the 580-foot mark. Using powerful brakes, the aircraft decelerates from about 40 knots to a standstill in around 175 feet.

Previously STOVL aircraft have conducted only vertical landings, hovering by the side of the ship before moving sideways over the deck and descending slowly. During SRVL the aircraft approaches the ship directly from behind at relatively low speed. A combination of thrust from its nozzle and lift-fan and lift created by air over the wings allows it to land with up to 7000lbs greater all up weight (UAW). Without SRVL capability, the F-35B would be forced to ditch some or all of the unused fuel and weapons when returning to the ship. Fuel is a precious resource and munitions are expensive. For example a single AIM-120D AMRAAM missile costs around £2.4 Million. With limited stocks and such a price tag, not something you want to casually jettison into the sea if unused. [There is a GOOD VL KPP for bringback weight]

Early critics of the STOVL version of the F-35 said SRVL could not be conducted safely. Their criticism was based on experience with the Harrier where this procedure was found to be too dangerous to be a feature of operational flying. The F-35 is a very different aircraft to the Harrier, with a great deal of automation that drastically reduces pilot workload. HMS Queen Elizabeth also has much more available deck space for the aircraft to roll along than the CVS.

This first SRVL was conducted in very benign conditions but will be more demanding at night on a wet and heaving while deck carrying weapons. Although early days, this is an encouraging start and validates years of work in the simulator. It also indicates the FOCFT programme is progressing fast and has not encountered any problems.

The UK is the only nation currently planning to use SRVL although the US Marine Corps is following developments closely as its aircraft are likely to be frequently embarked aboard the QEC carriers. USMC Test pilot, Major Michael Lippert is on board and commented “This is one of the main reasons we are here. It is of interest to the service at large and we are learning from each other. I will have the honour of conducting the first SRVL at sea for the US military so I’m excited. It’s what we all join up for – this is truly experimental test flying.”..."

Photo: "Pete “whizzer” Wilson, BAE Systems test pilot who flew the aircraft making the first real SRVL. Working as part of the JSF programme for 17 years, in preparation he had already conducted 2000 SRVLs in the simulator at Warton in Lancashire." https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-con ... -Pilot.jpg



Source: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/aviati ... elizabeth/
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Pete-Wilson-Test-Pilot.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 00:54

A repeat diagram / info about how to calculate an SRVL approach from whatever is given for the conditions as shown:

NOTE how the port side F-35Bs are parked at an angle to increase the 'width' or impression of WIDTH for SRVL pilots. :mrgreen:

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm & download/file.php?id=22502

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SRVLstarts1900feetTouchDown.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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sferrin

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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 02:21

spazsinbad wrote:
DECKs: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=402861&hilit=comparo#p402861 WITH decks below: download/file.php?id=28469

The USMC was interested in SRVL when they perhaps were going to operate their F-35B ONLY force on CVNs - but not now.

Image



Wouldn't the length be closer than you show given that some of the QE2's is taken up by the ski-jump up front? Also, there are videos of USMC F-35Bs performing SRVL on land runways several years old.
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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 02:46

'sferrin' said: "Wouldn't the length be closer than you show given that some of the QE2's is taken up by the ski-jump up front? Also, there are videos of USMC F-35Bs performing SRVL on land runways several years old."


I don't know if you have followed the 'USMC SRVL discussions'. An RVL on land runways is NOT the same as an SRVL. On a flat deck at sea there are SIX Degrees of Freedom of Movement for the flat deck. About the only thing different from an angle deck landing are the points summarized ad nauseam such as wind down the axial (perhaps) and it is a short straightaway from a low start altitude at a low KIAS as seen in the diagrams and now a REAL VIDEO. Perhaps the ski jump length of some 200+ feet is usable for an 'srvl bolter' (mentioned years ago now but not since then). To me it seems everyone gets ahead of what is happening as I have highlighted a few times recently now. NEVER MIND THE QUALITY (length) FEEL THE WIDTH. I'm not happy to see an SRVL on a narrow LHA deck but you may be as neither of us have to do it. As time goes by we will know more about 'what it is like to actually SRVL (without a BEDFORD ARRAY) onboard the QE'.

I recall a now old Warton Sim Video where the 'scoffers' scoffed at the claim that the F-35B stopped within 200 feet.

SRVL F-35B Demo CVF Sim + extras [04 Jul 2014] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPWjq23vL0
&
SRVL F-35B Test Pilot 'Wizzer' Wilson 1st Approach/Landing [14oct2018] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0KT1BxeqLk



RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 04:09

HMS Queen Elizabeth: Video shows British F-35 pilot carrying out ‘revolutionary’ first rolling landing on £3bn carrier
14 Oct 2018 Byron Melton

"...In the HMS Queen Elizabeth’s ‘packed but eerily silent’ flying control centre, it was Royal Navy lieutenant and landing safety officer [LSO] Christopher Mould who gave the historic SVRL the go-ahead – seconds before the F-35 jet carrying Mr Wilson touched down. ‘It was a pretty intense experience. It's the first time we’ve ever done it,’ he said. ‘As the independent checker, I have to make sure that what we are seeing in the flying control centre is also what the pilot is seeing and call it as I see it.’...

...The USMC, which also flies the F-35B variant used by HMS Queen Elizabeth, will join the ship when she deploys operationally for the first time in 2021. Maj Lippert said: ‘This is one of the main reasons we are here. It is of interest to the service at large and we are learning from each other. ‘I will have the honour of conducting the first SRVL at sea for the US military so I’m excited. It’s what we all join up for – this is truly experimental test flying.’

Source: https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... -1-8668370
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post15 Oct 2018, 18:53

'SaveTheRoyalNavy' complained about a dodgey PR blurb with YARDS in it. So here it is - I guess the USN just repeated it.
F-35 ITF conducts first Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing on HMS Queen Elizabeth
15 Oct 2018 PEO(JSF) Integrated Test Facility Public Affairs

"...The first SRVL was conducted by Peter Wilson, a BAE Systems U.K. test pilot with the F-35 Pax River Integrated Test Force, and took place at 10:30 a.m. Oct. 13, 2018, off the east coast of the U.S. Landing 755 yards back from the end of the carrier’s ski jump, the jet came to a complete standstill at the 580 yard mark...."

Photo Caption: "The first ever Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) has been carried out with an F-35B Lightning II joint strike fighter jet conducting trials onboard the new British aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth. The U.K. is the only nation currently planning to use the maneuver, which will allow jets to land onboard with heavier loads, meaning they won't need to jettison expensive fuel and weapons before landing. The landing, conducted by Peter Wilson, a BAE Systems UK test pilot with the F-35 Pax River Integrated Test Force, took place at exactly 10:30 a.m. Oct. 13, 2018, off the east coast of the U.S. Landing 755 yards back from the end of the carrier's ski jump, the jet came to a complete standstill at the 580 yard mark. Royal Navy photo"


Source: http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=6947
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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