The F-22 against the F-35/ Similar planes-Air Dominance role

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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phantasm

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 07:13

The F-22 is our best Air-Dominance fighter, and that's without a question- however, it's getting encroached upon in my eyes.

It's 'little brother' ,the F-35 -in terms of air dominance, isn't too far behind..

if the Raptor was to get into a fight with a JSF, I wonder as to if it'd be far closer than it should be.

The way I see it is this- The Raptor's got the better radar, the Thrust/Weight ratio(a real T/W ratio), the superior dbm stealth, the turning radius, the raw speed, the sustained speed, -etc.

However, the JSF brings more to the table than most. It's got the AMRAAMs for rangeas well- it's got the JHMCS- AIM 9X combo(Which the Raptor should have had by now). It's stealthy on it's own- it's APG 81 radar is no slouch-
and it's got a improved raptor's EW reciever- and perhaps most importantly, the EODAS.

For a scenario -a Raptor and a JSF are looking for each other- both dead ahead of each other..let's put them...100, miles apart. They both know there's a bogey out there.

*if any of my assumptions are wrong ,feel free to call me on it.
Because the JSF is stealthy on it's own, the APG-77 of the Raptor's not picking him up at long range, and continues searching in LPI style- and of course the JSF's not going to pick up the Raptor with his LPI mode, (or in non-LPI which he's not going to do )- he has the harder job there. They continue to go towards each other -

It comes down to , i guess what, 30 miles apart and inwards, if the Raptor's Radar can pick up the JSF, despite it's stealth features, before that IRST-acting EODAS of the JSF spots the Raptor. And coming from the front, Raptor's not going ot stand out- but ...

if the Raptor gets spotted- I guess Mr F-35 tosses some AMRAAMS on him using the EODAS, and while the AMRAAMS themselves have to get enough of a radar signature to...really go after the Raptor , at ALL.- the F35 still got the first shot off at before-WVR range.
and this isn't out of the realm of possibility, correct?

if the APG 77 sees the JSF, ,well then mr JSF gets to play evasive-maneuvers, and he can't really look for the F-22 with missiles inbound, while Mr Raptor shoots fish in a barrel- well, Joint Strike fighters for lunch.

if they see each other at the same time(not likely), Mr JSF loses this one too, as he has to dance harder to shake the RAAMS coming at him from range than the Raptor has to for the 120's on it.

If by some chance they end up getting WVR of each other , mr JSF is dead unless his JHMCS AIM9X combo saves him(being his only advantage in this type of combat)(and the Raptor would really have to purposely get into a bad position)- and even then, he has the harder job trying to pull this off.


-The above seems like a very real scenario playing out, as in the future we'll be facing stealthy platforms

with IRST's. And they''ll have more going for them like a better turning rate, better T/W possibly- they have longer ranged missiles(good for them, except against the Raptor, but hey).


So , why don't we 'solve' this? It'd be hyper easy- and it 'should be obvious'- slap a powerful IRST/EODAS on the Raptor, = game over for everyone else (and perhaps toss in JHMCS + the off-boresight capability)

Which would mean Mr JSF gets spotted far before he spots mr Raptor, by the Raptor's own IRST if the APG 77 can't outrange the JSF IRST, and any T-50's and ..:snicker: ....J-20's.. Or in the case the Raptor doesn't feel like relying on the LPI mode of the AESA APG 77 against anybody else.

Seems to me a Raptor + a really powerful EODAS/IRST = dead anything else in the sky, stealth or not, as that's what comes into play in stealth warfare.


I know the Raptor has upgrades scheduled- and that its not facing any stealth platforms anytime soon(not that it won't be going in exercises against it's little bro once the JSF gets to it)- but there doesn't seem to be a focus on certain elements which others are focusing on. Those German pilots who recently went against the Raptor figured their IRST's might let them spot the Raptor in about 30 NM- The Raptor would have had it's lunch with them with a fork and spoon named AIM-120 AMRAAM by then- but certainly we can "top off" the Raptor's capability to REALLY make anyone else coming up in decades to come, have to try that much harder.

//This is where i'd make some snide comment about how if they give everything to the F-35, they're trying to set the F-22 up to look bad,... :P :evil:

And hey- we're selling the JSF to a lot of countries. So in the far future, who knows, we might have Raptors going up against JSF's -even though I don't see that happening at all. The JSF is considered the #2 air-dominance platform- but some of it's attributes ...I feel make some serious inroads on it's big brother.

Thoughts? For all I know, the APG 77 can find the JSF before his EODAS can make out the F-22(or for something more likely, a T-50 or Su-35 with his IRST) ..but hey, systems get better over time. Some faster than others' systems.
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munny

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 10:36

By the time those capabilities are needed, the next generation of air superiority fighter will be starting production.
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FlightDreamz

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 13:37

F-22 was originally planned to have a IRST system but it was cut early on in the program to save costs. But as you say, it might reappear in a later block upgrade (don't forget there's room for side AESA arrays as well). F-22 has room for growth, biggest drawbacks are the budget and the limited numbers of the F-22. F-35 is going to get most of the focus for a while until it's (finally) rolling off the production line. Remains to be seen how drastically F-35 Lightning II purchase numbers get reduced.
A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing.— Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF.
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popcorn

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 14:39

Both systems are highly classified but I'd be interested in seeing how the AN/ALR-94 stacks up with the AN/ASQ-239, specially. when considering that the latter benefits from advances in technology.
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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 14:40

Both systems are highly classified but I'd be interested in seeing how the AN/ALR-94 stacks up with the AN/ASQ-239, specially. when considering that the latter benefits from advances in technology.
“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”
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wrightwing

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Unread post06 Aug 2012, 15:59

I suspect by the time the PAK FA and J-20 are IOC, and fielded in any significant numbers, that you'll see Increment 3.3, etc... mods on the F-22. Additionally, remember that upgraded F-15Cs and F-35s will have IRST and datalinks to provide F-22s with third party data.
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icemaverick

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Unread post08 Aug 2012, 03:12

Regarding the PAK-FA, this is an aircraft that's supposed to be operation by 2017. It had its maiden flight in 2010 and if the rumors are to be believed, it's had some major problems with the airframe. Let's not forget that this aircraft is being built on a fraction of the budget used to develop the F-22. Remember, after the Soviet Union collapsed, Russian expenditures on R&D collapsed. They have rebounded somewhat but they are still a small fraction of what the US spends. The US budget is more than 10 times that of Russia's.

Also consider that Russia has never fielded an operational stealth aircraft. The US has been flying stealth aircraft since the late 1970s. Do you think those engineers might have learned a thing or two over those decades? There is a huge difference between building a couple of prototypes and actually having thousands of flight time and maintenance hours on operational aircraft (including in real combat).

Even when the Soviet Union's R&D expenditures were close to being on par with those of the United States, Russia was behind in avionics, communications and radar technology. Compare the early MiG-29s to contemporaneous F-teens. The airframes were competitive, but not many of the electronics systems on board. Finally, how many leading Russian tech companies can you think of? I can think of exactly zero.

I don't mean to sound overconfident. We should never underestimate our rivals and competitors. The Russians have produced some fine aircraft before and they have plenty of talent in that country to come up with a good piece of kit. But are we really to believe that Russian engineers are going to produce a comparable aircraft to the F-22 with zero experience in operational stealth design, a smaller R&D base, a fraction of the budget and a shorter period of time? If they did manage to accomplish that, it would truly be one of the most spectacular feats of engineering ever accomplished.
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Unread post08 Aug 2012, 04:19

"But are we really to believe that Russian engineers are going to produce a comparable aircraft to the F-22"

Short answer as far as VLO design is a resounding No!

I've been modelling and performing RCS simulations of various aircraft features lately and one thing that really stood out with the PAK FA compared to both the F-22 and F-35 is that it has a LOT of RCS issues and compromises. In its current form, its all aspect RCS is a LOT larger than both of the american 5th gens.... in fact some of its features contradict its role.

PAK FA, like the F-22 is designed for high altitude flight ... 50,000+ ft. The aircraft its most likely to encounter in future battles is the F-35 which will often be cruising at a lower altitude. The PAK FA has an absolutely massive RCS problem with the inner edges of its engine nacelles which are exposed to ground radar and lower flying aircraft.

Then there's other issues due to immaturity of their design, technology or manufacturing processes. Rounded wing leading edges as opposed to the sharp edges on the F-22 and F-35... bad RCS juju. No tapering on the side edges of the slats (even the chinese got this right on their j-20 prototype). The round IRST is a killer. F-35 got this right with EOTS by using a dual reflector optical system and some good digital image processing. PAK FA has a lack of blending at surface joints, bad for surface waves. Hinges are not seamless like the F-35. Canopy frame, numerous protruding tubes, nozzles with exposed surfaces with low incident angles.

J-20 has its fair share of issues too. Massive total leading edge length and rounded leading edges. The size and angles on the actuators for the wing control surfaces. Its size, nozzles and rear control surface layout. Its a lot better than the PAK FA (naturally, for the most part, its a F-22 copy for VLO), yet it doesn't have any of its sensors and antennas attached at this point.

Kopp can say what he likes, but the US is WAY ahead in the VLO game.
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wrightwing

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Unread post08 Aug 2012, 14:35

If I recall correctly, the PAK FA has slipped 2yrs, to a 2019 IOC, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't shift right again.
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Unread post09 Aug 2012, 00:13

wrightwing wrote:If I recall correctly, the PAK FA has slipped 2yrs, to a 2019 IOC, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't shift right again.

Will that be IOC with 5Gen engines? I think they still have a long path ahead of them with surprises awaiting.
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Unread post09 Aug 2012, 13:50

popcorn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:If I recall correctly, the PAK FA has slipped 2yrs, to a 2019 IOC, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't shift right again.

Will that be IOC with 5Gen engines? I think they still have a long path ahead of them with surprises awaiting.


I'm guessing no, but that's just my opinion.
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stobiewan

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Unread post10 Aug 2012, 09:49

popcorn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:If I recall correctly, the PAK FA has slipped 2yrs, to a 2019 IOC, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't shift right again.

Will that be IOC with 5Gen engines? I think they still have a long path ahead of them with surprises awaiting.


As far as I'm aware the Chinese have not produced a military jet engine under their own efforts of any generation so far, so it's likely their development efforts will be somewhat problematic. They may stun the world but so far, everything they've succeeded in has been an output of an evolutionary process, building on each previous design. They're still at a very early stage in jet design I believe.
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Unread post05 Aug 2013, 02:58

Wow, almost literally a year ago- guess something about this time of year makes my mind wander to the same things - oh wait, I DID start this a year ago exactly: :bang:

- Those side AESA arrays that the Raptor has room for - I wonder just how well they'd work.
My mind goes to the PAK-Fa whic his supposed to have those wing radars , L band , to help against VLO opponents(in detection) - the radar upgrades the Raptor is supposed to get eventually aren't really geared with going against Pak-Fa's in mind, no?

I'd think EODAS/IRST still rules the roost as far as trying to have a VLO platform dominate another VLO platform(not that the other additions would hurt)


-Someone mentioned it in the F-35 forum, but we really might be in the very funny , ironic, and embarrassing position of having the F-35 end up pulling ahead when it practices against the Raptor, due to the EODAS. I'd think that , in situations like that as a factor ,ending up being a little dependent on your plane not being as easy to track by Sidewinders and AMRAAMS as the other guy's plane is, would be a little unsettling.

APG-77 vs EODAS is still the name of the game :(

(well, it'd actually be APG-77* vs APG 81* + EODAS)
*versions will change
...while the PAK-FA is taking every thing it can get with that IRST and the L-band radars as extras..

- Unlike current platforms which sometimes end up being WVR or BVR - which then the answer is what Block vs what Block - I'm thinking they'd have to drastically upgrade the APG-77 ,and when that's all the Raptor has to rely on against it's little brother and it's rival- aren't the lack of hardware options going to serve as a compromise in effect?
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Unread post05 Aug 2013, 03:45

stobiewan wrote:
popcorn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:If I recall correctly, the PAK FA has slipped 2yrs, to a 2019 IOC, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't shift right again.

Will that be IOC with 5Gen engines? I think they still have a long path ahead of them with surprises awaiting.


As far as I'm aware the Chinese have not produced a military jet engine under their own efforts of any generation so far, so it's likely their development efforts will be somewhat problematic. They may stun the world but so far, everything they've succeeded in has been an output of an evolutionary process, building on each previous design. They're still at a very early stage in jet design I believe.


If the Russians are smart, they will prevent China from gaining Engine development technology and force them to learn every piece of engine design / manufacturing / engineering on their own.

Keep China in line so they can't get to arrogant.

We all know China's aircraft's big weakness is that it's dependent on Russia for any serious maintenance.
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Unread post05 Aug 2013, 18:37

kamenriderblade wrote:
stobiewan wrote:
popcorn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:If I recall correctly, the PAK FA has slipped 2yrs, to a 2019 IOC, and I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't shift right again.

Will that be IOC with 5Gen engines? I think they still have a long path ahead of them with surprises awaiting.


As far as I'm aware the Chinese have not produced a military jet engine under their own efforts of any generation so far, so it's likely their development efforts will be somewhat problematic. They may stun the world but so far, everything they've succeeded in has been an output of an evolutionary process, building on each previous design. They're still at a very early stage in jet design I believe.


If the Russians are smart, they will prevent China from gaining Engine development technology and force them to learn every piece of engine design / manufacturing / engineering on their own.

Keep China in line so they can't get to arrogant.

We all know China's aircraft's big weakness is that it's dependent on Russia for any serious maintenance.

I think thats really only for engines, and maybe some avionics. The Chinese are inching closer to independence using US civilian engine tech in their military engines. The US-China tech transfer is largely out of Russian control, and difficult for the US to restrict only to civil engine applications.

Most (all?) of the airframe components are locally manufactured in China, some licensed from Russia, some not licensed. China has a larger fleet of advanced 4th gen+ Flankers (Su-27/Su-30, J-11, J-15 etc) than Russia does. A significant part of the Su-27 fleet in Russia uses outdated avionics.

Where things get interesting is that the J-20 and J-31 is a Chinese designed aircraft, and if China gets their own engines sorted out, represents a viable threat to Russian export business. This is a economic threat more than a direct military threat.
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