F-35 may change everything we know about modern dogfighting?

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

raptorpilotwannabe

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 14
  • Joined: 07 Dec 2011, 16:49
  • Location: Alaska

Unread post16 May 2012, 02:06

I don't know much about this information I found out about the F-35, but it's primarily the locking system i've heard about that has a 360degree locking system so no matter where the enemy will be, he will not be safe. Weather the plane is above or below the fuselage of the F-35 or anywhere else the locking system will go. I only read this from one source that stated "The F-35 maneuverability will prove to be obsolete due to it's 360 degree locking system"
Offline

shingen

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 582
  • Joined: 30 Jan 2010, 03:27
  • Location: California

Unread post16 May 2012, 02:10

Maneuverability irrelevant in the A2A realm WVR.
Offline

firstimpulse

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 313
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2012, 18:21

Unread post16 May 2012, 04:05

shingen wrote:Maneuverability irrelevant in the A2A realm WVR.

...unless the sensors can't see the target craft because it uses IR stealth. The F-35's sensor setup is the best in the world, but countermeasures are always out there. Of course, the J-20 and PAK-FA probably have nowhere near the level of IR stealth required to evade the F-35's IRST.
But anything that uses this would probably give EOTS a run for its money, requiring some turnin and burnin:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/nasas- ... bs-99.html
Offline

batu731

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 122
  • Joined: 23 Jun 2010, 23:26

Unread post16 May 2012, 08:34

It is no doubt F-35's software has unprecedented capabilities, and complexity.
Most mission software is probably still in development, even if the hardware is already there.
Offline

bjr1028

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 511
  • Joined: 07 Jul 2009, 03:34
  • Location: Dubuque, IA

Unread post16 May 2012, 15:49

They thought the same thing before Vietnam and actually stopped WVR combat training. We started losing brand new aircraft to Korean war planes with pilots who were trained for a dogfight. Plan for the worst case scenario so you're that much better in the likely scenario.
Offline

handyman

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 104
  • Joined: 04 Mar 2011, 05:41
  • Location: SFO

Unread post16 May 2012, 16:13

What happens when the other guy has the same sensors?
Offline

pants3204

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 117
  • Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 04:42
  • Location: Arizona

Unread post16 May 2012, 16:19

handyman wrote:What happens when the other guy has the same sensors?

The aircraft fly in circles about each other for hours. The victor decided by fuel capacity.
Offline

Conan

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1000
  • Joined: 27 Apr 2007, 07:23

Unread post16 May 2012, 16:22

handyman wrote:What happens when the other guy has the same sensors?


Then obviously the other guy will win clearly. Gee this air combat stuff is simple. I really wonder why those "professional" fighter pilot types bother with all that training and wargaming and stuff. It's clearly useless in the face of such unassailable logic...

Or perhaps the F-35 might be improved through some "revolutionary" idea known on previous aircraft programs as a "Block upgrade program" somewhat similar to what the "other guy" will have to do in fact to "get" these sensors and perhaps this Block upgrade will be matched against the known threats?

Just an idea I know. It sounds rather loopy afterall to think that this particular fighter aircraft (despite all of those on the planet that currently do) won't stay at it's Block III IOC level of capability throughout it's lifetime...

:roll:
Last edited by Conan on 17 May 2012, 02:02, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

delvo

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 546
  • Joined: 15 Aug 2011, 04:06

Unread post16 May 2012, 16:32

Its stealth & sensors don't just reduce the need for a close, tight dogfight. They also provide an advantage during one.

People can't aim guns from plane to plane, because it requires predicting where one moving object will be based on observations made from another moving object, with a serious shortage of useful cues about either one's movement relative to the background environment, none of which our eyes and brains were meant for... not to mention accounting for the effect of gravity over a long ballistic path. You can have your plane do some of the work for you, but that requires the plane to "lock on" to the target and track it, just the same as if you were farther away and firing a missile. And to do that, the shooting plane needs to be able to get a good sensor signal from the target plane.

Other fighters rely on radar to get those vectors and aim their guns. I don't know of any others that even have electro-optical sensors at all, and although some others do have infra-red, it's for firing missiles, not linked to the gun. In an F-35, all three are present and generate a single information output, which is normally presented as an aid to humans for "situational awareness" and decision-making but also means that any of the sensors can lock onto targets to be fired at by any of the weapons.
Offline

sewerrat

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 287
  • Joined: 23 Mar 2009, 18:03

Unread post16 May 2012, 16:35

Pure speculation at this point. As far as I know, there haven't been any practice engagements of -35s versus anything at this point in time.

When software and architecture is advanced enough (if not so already), the -35 could very well be first fighter with hands off ACM in a turning fight, with the pilot just deciding when to release weapons. When that happens, I'll put my money on a CPU controlled -35 against a "grey matter" controlled and theoretically more maneuverable opponent each and every time.
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 4724
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post16 May 2012, 16:52

1. No such thing as IR stealth. That paint (or whatever) would not work (anytime soon) for two reasons:
.....A. It would violate the law of energy conservation. All the energy created and absorbed by the airframe has to go somewhere. It cannot be erased or ignored.
.....B. IF it absorbed and hid all it's energy, it would then be a cold black spot (as opposed to a hot white spot) which would still show up on sensors (especially in WVR).

2. The problem in Vietnam was that they assumed that the missiles would work well (despite their infancy and and they removed the guns from the F-4s before verifying it). Neither applies today. Extensive AAM testing and improvements (hello IIR seekers) have made WVR missiles very reliable. The F-35A also still has it's gun while the F-35B/C can strap one on if the need arises..


Parting Shot:
How wicked will the F-35 be in WVR (or CAS) when they get laser guided cannon shells working cheaply enough?
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

tacf-x

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 446
  • Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 02:25
  • Location: Champaign, Illinois

Unread post16 May 2012, 17:14

VERY wicked Spudman, VERY wicked. In fact, I think I remember reading an article saying that attack helicopters will be getting that laser guided cannon treatment so it's only a matter of time before we have CAS F-35As packing laser guided 25mm shells.
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 4724
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post16 May 2012, 17:38

I see Apache 30mm sniper shots at two miles coming... OUCH!!!
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

river_otter

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 176
  • Joined: 18 Aug 2011, 09:42
  • Location: Arizona

Unread post16 May 2012, 17:48

SpudmanWP wrote:1. No such thing as IR stealth. That paint (or whatever) would not work (anytime soon) for two reasons:
.....A. It would violate the law of energy conservation. All the energy created and absorbed by the airframe has to go somewhere. It cannot be erased or ignored.
.....B. IF it absorbed and hid all it's energy, it would then be a cold black spot (as opposed to a hot white spot) which would still show up on sensors (especially in WVR).


IR stealth is different from radar stealth, because IR detection is very different from radar detection. It's pretty much a given the F-22, and probably the F-35 as well, have refrigeration of some sort under particular airframe hotspots, which pump heat into the fuel. The fuel gets burned and goes away from the plane, thus not violating the law of energy conservation while the plane stays cool. I also wouldn't be surprised if the shapes of the planes were designed around focusing those hotspots so they could be better cooled. It's been more than speculated that the F-22's shape is also designed to minimize the formation of contrails, so why not design it to also control skin heating? The two are not unrelated.

Also, the primary source of IR emissions on a jet is the jet engine. Skin heating is rarely that important; these aren't space shuttles, and any IR sensor will see the engine before the skin. The F-22 uses flat nozzles that spread the hot exhaust sideways. IR emissions from a gas are different than from a solid body. A solid body radiates as a surface directly relative to temperature. A gas radiates as a space, relative to both temperature and thickness. The F-22, viewed from above or below, has less infrared emissions than a comparable jet with round exhausts. The total amount of heat radiated is the same, but it appears cooler from other altitudes. Viewed from the side it has higher emissions. But if you already know what altitude you have to be at to view its worst profile, that added infrared signature isn't helping you find the F-22 you've already found. And in a turning fight you won't keep your angle. The F-22 also has cooling air for the thrust vectoring nozzles. That mixes with the exhaust and raises thrust as well as lowering the exhaust gas temperature.

The F-35, like the YF-23, buries the engine much deeper inside the plane than the F-22. The comparatively long tunnel the exhaust has to go through adds a great deal of bypass air for cooling the structure as well as the exhaust stream itself, raising thrust and lowering the exhaust gas temperature. It's also nearly impossible to see the face of the afterburner flameholders or most of the tunnel interior (solid bodies that would radiate as hot surfaces) because it's so deep. You see the comparatively cooler interior of the nozzle unless, as with the F-22, you already know where it is and are already able to line up on it. Also, unlike the F-22, the F-35 is designed for primarily subsonic operation, where skin heating is less to begin with. The IR signature of the F-35 is therefore much lower than for a comparable plane not designed with IR stealth.

In neither case does it have to be as good as radar stealth. The ranges at which IR works are much shorter than radar to begin with. One of the most important aspects of IR stealth is therefore: radar stealth. If they can't find you at BVR ranges with their radar, you can deny them ranges at which their IR sensors will find you.
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 4724
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post16 May 2012, 18:11

I know, I was talking about FirstImpulse's quote
shingen wrote:
Maneuverability irrelevant in the A2A realm WVR.


...unless the sensors can't see the target craft because it uses IR stealth.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Next

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests