British Guy: F-35 anything BUT a stealth fighter

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1st503rdsgt

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Unread post19 Mar 2012, 21:57

http://defense-update.com/20120318_the- ... ement.html

This article is hilarious.

The F-35 Procurement is the US DoD’s largest procurement programme (with an individual aircraft costing in excess of US$150M, more likely US$280M for the complete production run) the program represents a Total Fleet Life-Cycle Cost Estimate of possibly in excess of US$1Trilion (US$1,000Bn). This, for what was advertised as an affordable, capable, stealth fighter for the US and its allies, has now been revealed to be the most expensive fighter aircraft ever developed, with increased size and weight (and consequently reduced capability), and “stealth” compromised by the design and also the external ordnance hard points as fitted to earlier aircraft (certainly not in the league of the F-117 stealth fighter). This is such a change that it could almost be regarded as an update to an F-16, or the F-22 Raptor – only noisier. Now, being a Radar and EW Engineer by background, I have to confess that the JSF F-35 looks anything BUT a ‘stealth fighter’.


The part where he talks about the Vulcan bomber that flew over his house is also good.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post19 Mar 2012, 22:12

Quote from above from the 'would-be Carlo Kopp of the UK' in his own THE GOON SHOW: "...Now, being a Radar and EW Engineer by background, I have to confess that the JSF F-35 looks anything BUT a ‘stealth fighter’...." :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goon_Show

OR maybe the GOONIES: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goonies
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shingen

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Unread post19 Mar 2012, 23:32

What's his handle on forums? I've heard his line from a variety of guys.
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m

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Unread post20 Mar 2012, 00:44

Quote: has somebody got a calculator? This seems to be an extremely cost effective Future Air Force – or is there something that we don’t know about?

May be he could calculate some time how many will be lost in some 30-40 years? :idea:
The lost rate of unmanned vehicles is incredibly high. Within such a period of time, with some bad luck, all will have been lost.
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stobiewan

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Unread post21 Mar 2012, 15:29

Ahahah..I called this article a junk link the other week on another forum and the guy practically burst into tears. The Vulcan comment tickled me immensely, something about that huge dihedral reflector sticking out the top of the fuselage...
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southernphantom

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Unread post21 Mar 2012, 18:43

… has somebody got a calculator? This seems to be an extremely cost effective Future Air Force – or is there something that we don’t know about?


Yes, the fact that UCAVs have abysmal SA and reaction time, coupled with a complete inability to successfully engage in air-to-air combat (Firebee 147s aside).
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aaam

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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 19:07

In his rather curious article, he does try to raise a valid point on something that hasn't gotten much notice, although even there he describes it incorrectly.

He states, "...and the likely inability of the F-35C to fire the UK’s standard Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM), as will be fitted to the UK fleet of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft". It is not that the F-35C won't be able to fire ASRAAM, it's that it can't carry and launch it from the internal bays, whereas the F-35B can. Now the appropriate modifications can no doubt can be made, but guess who's going to have to pay for them?
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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 19:19

aaam wrote:In his rather curious article, he does try to raise a valid point on something that hasn't gotten much notice, although even there he describes it incorrectly.

He states, "...and the likely inability of the F-35C to fire the UK’s standard Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM), as will be fitted to the UK fleet of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft". It is not that the F-35C won't be able to fire ASRAAM, it's that it can't carry and launch it from the internal bays, whereas the F-35B can. Now the appropriate modifications can no doubt can be made, but guess who's going to have to pay for them?


We already let go of that one - we traded out that work for something else, can't recall what but there was something else we wanted cleared or some reason we dropped the requirement but yes, ASRAAM will be external launch only. The B is in the same position however - doesn't matter what we buy, B or C.
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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 19:34

I think the ASRAAM will have been out of production for 10 years when it becomes time to integrate it. So it would be of little attraction to develop internal/LOAL launch for the remaining service period.

Just my 2c.
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stobiewan

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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 19:53

Tell a lie, according to this video interview with MBDA in 2010, ASRAAM integration is still an SDD requirement, they're confident it can be done and have done ground trials for the trapeze launcher.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... eteor.html


Hrmmm....


He did specifically mention F35B however.
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aaam

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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 20:03

stobiewan wrote:Tell a lie, according to this video interview with MBDA in 2010, ASRAAM integration is still an SDD requirement, they're confident it can be done and have done ground trials for the trapeze launcher.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... eteor.html


Hrmmm....


He did specifically mention F35B however.


The F-35B was the only model designed to carry ASRAAM internally and to have the avionics mod to use it. UK will have to foot the bill to develop the launcher for the somewhat different F-35C bay and avionics.
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Last edited by aaam on 22 Mar 2012, 20:22, edited 1 time in total.
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aaam

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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 20:19

bumtish wrote:I think the ASRAAM will have been out of production for 10 years when it becomes time to integrate it. So it would be of little attraction to develop internal/LOAL launch for the remaining service period.

Just my 2c.


ASRAAM may replace Magic in Indian service, and it's going to be around quite a while in Britain and Australia in any case. Just because something has completed scheduled production doesn't mean you throw it away. We've got a lot of AIM-9s still around, and in fact AIM-9X is a rebuilt AIM-9M. In some areas, ASRAAM even outperforms AIM-9X. Besides, what would they use instead? CAMM is still a ways off and will use components of ASRAAM
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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 20:42

The F-35B was the only model designed to carry ASRAAM internally and to have the avionics mod to use it.

All three F-35 models share the same avionics. In fact, the exact same software build is loaded into each.

btw, one of the issues with using ASRAAM internally on the F-35 (and the desire to use a trapeze launcher to lower it into the slipstream in order to get a nice clear view) is that ASRAAM has NO datalink for midcourse updates (IIRC).
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aaam

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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 21:00

SpudmanWP wrote:
The F-35B was the only model designed to carry ASRAAM internally and to have the avionics mod to use it.

All three F-35 models share the same avionics. In fact, the exact same software build is loaded into each.

btw, one of the issues with using ASRAAM internally on the F-35 (and the desire to use a trapeze launcher to lower it into the slipstream in order to get a nice clear view) is that ASRAAM has NO datalink for midcourse updates (IIRC).


ASRAAM has full capability for LOAL and can also perform independent IR search. The use of datalink was a design decision in the interests of simplicity and speed of reaction. ASRAAM does some things differently than, say, AM-9X because of different underlying philosophies In any case, RAAF demonstrated the use of Link 16 with ASRAAM years ago.

Note than on the F-22, AIM-9 "peeks" out before firing. Whether that will still be true years from now when it gets full AIM-9X capabilities, I don't know.

Regarding the avionics, the software configuration loaded for each version depends on the using service and the weapons to be carried by same. For example US F-35s will not have the capability to use Meteor. The F-35B is the one that was to get ASRAAM software. Could that be ported over to the F-35C? Sure, but at a cost. One of the downsides of all these new computerized capabilities in weapons and aircraft is that it takes more to change what they can do.
Last edited by aaam on 22 Mar 2012, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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stobiewan

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Unread post22 Mar 2012, 21:04

SpudmanWP wrote:
The F-35B was the only model designed to carry ASRAAM internally and to have the avionics mod to use it.

All three F-35 models share the same avionics. In fact, the exact same software build is loaded into each.

btw, one of the issues with using ASRAAM internally on the F-35 (and the desire to use a trapeze launcher to lower it into the slipstream in order to get a nice clear view) is that ASRAAM has NO datalink for midcourse updates (IIRC).


Yup - and the AA station is identical in each case - it's the air to ground station that is perhaps different on the B vs A and C? So, you'd have to clear the store for separation but all else would be identical.

ASRAAM can do LOAL so it doesn't *need* to see the target, but it gets that LOAL capability by predicting the target position from the pre-launch information. Frankly, unless you and the target were the only things around for 20 km, I suspect I'd worry a bit about using a LOAL shot in case the thing scampered off and T-boned something else.
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