Italy orders first 3 F35

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

seruriermarshal

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 195
  • Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 02:01

Unread post09 Feb 2012, 01:50

On Feb. 7, 2012, Gen. Claudio Debertolis, head of the agency that is responsible for the procurement of new armaments, has announced that Italy has already ordered the first three Lockheed Martin F-35s.

Unit price: 80 million USD.

Talking to the lower house’s defense commitee, Debertolis explained that these first planes will cost more than the rest of the fleet since costs are going to decrease as the program, currently in Low Rate Initial Production, continues. The Italian high rank officer is particularly optimistic, as he believes that the unit price will be around 70 million each (Lockheed Martin estimates 65M USD for the F-35A and about 73M USD for the F-35B), less than the 79 million USD currently paid for the Eurofighter Typhoon and much less of the 121 million USD per aircraft anticipated in 2011.

Quite surprising, since unit price is one of the JSF partner’s main concern, but possible, considering also that the Typhoon has just lost India’s mother of all tenders based on price.

Although there’s no official commitment yet, the initial requirement for Italy foresaw 131 examples (69 conventional take-off and landing F-35As and 62 of the short take-off and vertical landing variant F-35Bs). Debertolis confirmed that determining how many aircraft Italy will purchase is not a current task, since it will depend on the Defense Budget Review. Nevertheless, even if the number of aircraft will be much lower than the initial 131, the MoD will work to make sure that the industry will get the expected compensation.

Italy is working on stretching deliveries and slowing purchase “a much easier task than that with the Eurofighter program, since the F-35 procurement is modular therefore delays don’t imply increasing costs” Debertolis said.

Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the Typhoon and “divert” part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility.

Finally, Debertolis has confirmed that Italy will have both A and B variants, with the STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) ones serving both the Air Force and the Navy, that will use them on the Cavour aircraft carrier.

In spite of the widespread criticism surrounding the program and the global financial crisis it looks like the F-35 has, if not a bright future ahead, at least good chances to survive the austerity measures of the new Monti’s technocratic cabinet.

http://theaviationist.com/2012/02/08/f35-typhoon/
Offline

popcorn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3446
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post09 Feb 2012, 03:33

Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement: “a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon”

Similar feedback from the Japanese bidding only this carries more weight coming from a Typhoon operator.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 11261
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post10 Feb 2012, 23:21

News about order is told to 'sit in the back o' the bus'.

Italy Widely Expected to Scale Back F-35 Orders Feb 10, 2012
By Steve Scherer, Andrea Shalal-Esa and Paolo Biondi/Reuters ROME and WASHINGTON

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... line=Italy Widely Expected to Scale Back F-35 Orders

"Italy seems certain to scale back its major investment in Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, heightening uncertainty over the troubled stealth jet’s future.

Defense Minister Giampaolo Di Paola has said repeatedly since January that the country’s originally planned order of the 131 supersonic warplanes by 2018 was being “reviewed” because military spending cuts were necessary as part of Prime Minister Mario Monti’s austerity plan to shore up public accounts.

Gen. Claudio Debertolis, secretary general of the Defense Ministry and the country’s armaments chief, confirmed to lawmakers Feb. 7 that cuts were expected.

“There will be a revision of this Joint Strike Fighter programme to align it with disposable resources,” he said.

Italy will ask for about 30 fewer planes, Corriere della Sera daily reported Feb. 10, without citing its source. Panorama magazine gave the same number on Jan. 18....

...“It’s reasonable to do what the American government is doing, reduce the number of orders and spread them out over a longer time frame,” said Federica Mogherini, secretary of the Italian Chamber of Deputies’ defense committee and a member of the centre-left Democratic Party, the second-biggest block supporting Monti’s technocrat government in parliament.

“It’s not yet necessary to establish total number of planes we will order because costs are evolving, and all the technical problems have yet to be resolved,” she told Reuters....

...Italy is the third investor in the program after the U.S. and Britain. Italy is in the process of ordering its first three planes for $240 million, Debertolis said on Tuesday.... [ironic]
RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
Offline

m

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 651
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 23:40
  • Location: NL

Unread post11 Feb 2012, 00:19

Quote: “It’s reasonable to do what the American government is doing, reduce the number of orders and spread them out over a longer time frame,” said Federica Mogherini, secretary of the Italian Chamber of Deputies’ defense committee and a member of the centre-left Democratic Party, the second-biggest block supporting Monti’s technocrat government in parliament.



Following the US path. Suppose Italy still could order, longer term, a planned figure F35`s.

$80 million? Including the Engine? :roll:
Offline

Vipernice

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 81
  • Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 21:06

Unread post14 Feb 2012, 23:35

Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:26pm EST

* Italian newspaper said Italy to reduce F-35 order by 40

* Defence min to address parliament about cuts on Wednesday

* Min says Italy still committed to Joint Strike Fighter

ROME, Feb 14 (Reuters) - Italy will cut investment in Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 stealth fighter plane as part of an overall reduction in military spending, Defence Minister Giampaolo Di Paola said on Tuesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/ ... YK20120214
Offline

m

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 651
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 23:40
  • Location: NL

Unread post15 Feb 2012, 00:54

Italy F-35 Cuts Announcement Possible This Week

Attention will also be focused on the JSF program, with a cut from 131 to about 100 aircraft seen likely. The Defense Council warned of cuts to “some significant investment programs.”

By building the Cameri line, Italy would eventually allow Italy access to U.S. technology that hitherto the U.K. has accessed first thanks to its close relationship with the U.S.

Work on stealth coatings for the aircraft would be under U.S. control at Cameri, he said, but “it is clear that the moment this technology is released, we will be the first to have it, since it is our national territory.”

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... dyssey=nav


Access to US technology? To some extend I doubt this.
In the Netherlands, as well as in Belgium, there has been a F16 production line.
There has never been access to US technology at that time, only concerning production technology. I don’t have the impression this changed that much.
Offline

m

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 651
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 23:40
  • Location: NL

Unread post15 Feb 2012, 01:32

Access to US technology? To some extend I doubt this.

At the other hand, there is a substantial difference between a country like Italy (and the UK) and small countries like the Netherlands and Belgium.
Excess to US technology could may be a possibility for Italy
Offline

rwy05

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 12
  • Joined: 30 Jul 2009, 13:28
  • Location: near the runway

Unread post15 Feb 2012, 09:33

Yesterday the Defence Minister Adm. Di Paola officialy announced the reduction to 90 ships from the original 135; no more details are disclosed but there are rumors about the cancellation of the F-35B for the Air Force.

r.
Offline

rwy05

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 12
  • Joined: 30 Jul 2009, 13:28
  • Location: near the runway

Unread post15 Feb 2012, 14:00

Now is official : the Italian Governement will cut the defence budget for the coming 10 years.
The first, and most important, cut will the reduction to 90 F-35 : 60 F-35A for the Air Force and 30 F-35 for the Navy.
The personnell off the whole armed forces will be reduce by 30% and also the main Units of the Air Force and the Army will be concentrated in a reduced number of Unit and relative hardware (barracks, airports).
The Navy will reduce is buying of helicopters EH-101 and EH-90, no numbers available at moment.

r.
Offline

m

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 651
  • Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 23:40
  • Location: NL

Unread post15 Feb 2012, 14:36

Considering Italy has got severe economical problems, 90 F35's still is a nice figure.
For instance, not is known yet what the UK figure will be? Expected 2015?
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 11261
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post15 Feb 2012, 18:17

Italy Cuts F-35 30%; XXX Feb 15, 2012 By Antonella Cinelli, James Grubel and Steve Scherer/Reuters ROME and CANBERRA

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... line=Italy Cuts F-35 30%; Australia Commits

"Italy will cut its order for Lockheed Martin’s radar-evading F-35 by more than 30% as part of Prime Minister Mario Monti’s battle against state spending, Defence Minister Giampaolo Di Paola said Feb. 15.

Italy plans to buy 90 warplanes instead of the 131 it agreed to purchase a decade ago, Di Paola said in testimony to the joint Senate and Chamber of Deputies defence committees....

...The F-35 is not the only defense cut Italy is planning. The 183,000 military and 30,000 civilian personnel, which currently account for 70% of the nation’s military spending, will progressively be cut by 20%, Di Paola said. Italy will close or sell 30% of logistical bases and regional headquarters over about five years, and the navy will reduce patrol boats to 10 from 18, and submarines to four from six, Di Paola said. He gave no overall savings estimate...."
RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 11261
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post17 May 2012, 00:44

Italian AF, Navy Head for F-35B Showdown 15 May 2012 by Tom Kington

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... /305150010

"ROME — Italy’s decision to slash its overall F-35 Joint Strike Fighter order from 131 to 90 jets has kick-started a debate over how the Italian Air Force and Navy can divide a shrinking number of F-35B short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) versions in the package.

With both services wanting the jet and neither likely to get the number they want, talks are underway at the Ministry of Defense to find a solution, with a pooled fleet a growing possibility, officials and analysts said.

Before Defense Minister Giampao-lo di Paola announced the JSF reduction in February, prompted by defense spending cuts, the Air Force had planned to acquire 69 conventional F-35As to replace its Tornados and 40 F-35Bs to replace its AMX fighter bombers, citing a need to field STOVL aircraft to exploit short landing strips. That left the Navy with 22 STOVL versions to replace its aging AV-8 Harriers on its new carrier, the Cavour.

In a recent interview with the Italian publication Airpress, Air Force chief Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis said, “The Air Force will have 75 F-35s, of which 15 will be B, adding to the Navy’s 15.”

His prediction, however, followed statements from Rear Adm. Paolo Treu, head of Italian naval aviation, that 22 STOVL aircraft, not 15, is the absolute minimum number the Navy can order. That suggests the talks at the MoD will be heated....

...A senior defense source confirmed the aircraft would be interchangeable. But pilots will not be, due to the different skills involved in flying from land and from a carrier deck." [in an F-35B - go on - pull the other one (leg)] :D

That last chap quote must never have seen any UK RN/RAF STOVie shipboard ops. Anyway always more at the JUMP!
Last edited by spazsinbad on 17 May 2012, 03:16, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
Offline

stereospace

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 660
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 17:35
  • Location: Columbia, Maryland, USA

Unread post17 May 2012, 02:45

Let's also remember the F-35 will be in production for many, many years. What we're seeing are TODAY'S budgets. Who can say what additional orders will get placed 10 or 20 years from now.

The key milestone LM needs to achieve is a production rate high enough to drive down the cost curve by spreading fixed costs over more units, as well as reductions through workforce learning and manufacturing efficiency improvements. As long as they can slide down that curve, all will be well.
Offline

geogen

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2946
  • Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 15:28
  • Location: 45 km offshore, New England

Unread post17 May 2012, 05:41

stereospace wrote:The key milestone... is a production rate high enough to drive down the cost curve... As long as they can slide down that curve, all will be well.


How do you define 'well'?

If in your theory Air Forces are significantly delaying and 'back-ending' their respective orders until 15-20 yrs from now, how will that affect 'high enough production rates' to keep down the cost curve over the next 10 yrs?

Fact is, for the foreseeable future (and including early FRP lots), orders will unfortunately be substantially further reduced (as have already been to date), more than originally calculated into the original cost estimates and hence the unit Procurement Costs will be substantially higher than are apparently still anticipated today.

And that being said... Air Forces require cost-effective recapitalization now and in the medium-term, not starting in 15-20 years from now. i.e., the flaw.
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
Offline

stereospace

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 660
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 17:35
  • Location: Columbia, Maryland, USA

Unread post17 May 2012, 18:28

geogen wrote:
stereospace wrote:The key milestone... is a production rate high enough to drive down the cost curve... As long as they can slide down that curve, all will be well.


How do you define 'well'?

If in your theory Air Forces are significantly delaying and 'back-ending' their respective orders until 15-20 yrs from now, how will that affect 'high enough production rates' to keep down the cost curve over the next 10 yrs?

Fact is, for the foreseeable future (and including early FRP lots), orders will unfortunately be substantially further reduced (as have already been to date), more than originally calculated into the original cost estimates and hence the unit Procurement Costs will be substantially higher than are apparently still anticipated today.

And that being said... Air Forces require cost-effective recapitalization now and in the medium-term, not starting in 15-20 years from now. i.e., the flaw.


Agreed, mostly. If too many orders are deferred, that could kill the program because you'll never get costs down. Certain orders, like Italy's, may HAVE to be deferred, but that doesn't mean they will never buy F-35s beyond the current budget forecast.

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests