A question about very weird F-16I photos

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DeepSpace

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Unread post12 Nov 2004, 19:37

These photographs were taken at FW.

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album04/iyr.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/keith1959/image/33634840

http://www.pbase.com/keith1959/image/33634871

http://www.pbase.com/keith1959/image/33634894

http://www.pbase.com/keith1959/image/34803043

In these photos the silver band between the nuzzle and the tail is clearly visible. This band is identified with the GE engines, but the F-16I is supposedly powered by the PW engine.

Is it possible that LM flew the F-16I with the GE engine due to a "shortage" in the PW engines?

And no, I didn't ask this question just to show you the photos :P
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aggressor267

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Unread post12 Nov 2004, 20:34

That "silver band" you see is not silver. What you are seeing is the reflection of the sun. That band is made of the same material as the turkey feathers.

O.T.
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Happy_Gilmore

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Unread post12 Nov 2004, 22:42

It's part of the engines exhaust section, it sticks out between the donut panel and the convergent nozzle. The GE's have it also and no, LM did not fly a GE in an Israeli F-16I.
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DeepSpace

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Unread post12 Nov 2004, 23:50

It's part of the engines exhaust section, it sticks out between the donut panel and the convergent nozzle. The GE's have it also...


Yeah, but the deal is that I thought only the GE's have it.
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Pumpkin

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 00:00

hi DeepSpace, I guess you have got your answer. Just to add on.

I stand to be corrected but I believe it is technically impossible to retrofit a GE engine on a PW designated Viper (visa versa) for a "Combat" Viper. Other than the NSI (Small Mouth) and MCID (Larger Mouth) issue. I guess the engine troop can advise better.

Having say this, I can't be sure for a "Test" Viper. VISTA/MATV is one Viper that was powered by both PW & GE engines. :?:

Lastly, it is not logical for LM to fly the F-16I with GE in case of shortage PW. Their primary objective, I believe, is to certify the production for delivery. GE does not serve the purpose with the cost of engineering complexity.

In any case, if the complexity can be resolved, HAF and IAF will be more than happy to run a better supply chain management for their Viper inventories.

cheers,

PS: thanks for the link. Very nice picture @ pbase.com! Check out the Blk 60! :wink:
Desmond
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F16VIPER

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 01:12

It is great to see some real life shots of those two beasts.
has anybody photographed the F-16E yet?
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diamond1

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 04:27

The PW-229 has the carbon fiber “Turkey Feathers” that make it stand out even more than all other nozzles due to thier metal construction.

See: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_photos_album59-photoaac.html for a good side-by-side
It can also be seen in the VISTA photos below.

Pumpkin wrote:Having say this, I can't be sure for a "Test" Viper. VISTA/MATV is one Viper that was powered by both PW & GE engines. :?:


Yes the VISTA/MATV was the first MCID Viper to be equipped with a PW-229, but it’s not just a “plug-and-play” swap.

See photos below.
Attachments
PW-VISTA.jpg
F-16 VISTA with PW-229
GE-VISTA.jpg
F-16 VISTA with GE-100
Last edited by diamond1 on 19 Nov 2004, 05:59, edited 1 time in total.
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habu2

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 04:36

Definitely a F110PW-229 as evidenced by the black composite 'turkey feathers'
Reality Is For People Who Can't Handle Simulation
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DeepSpace

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 08:53

Thanks bix for the great explaination.

Just one more thing.
Actually the GEs don’t have it, but the PWs do……


For some reason I was sure it's the opposite way around.
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IDCrewDawg

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 09:43

For some reason I was sure it's the opposite way around.


That depends on the version of engine your refering to. The GE's do have a metal band but it's not as "shiny" as some of the other versions of the engine. For example. The -229 does have a carbon fiber support ring. The GE -110 has a distinct metal support band that tends to have a copper tinge to it. I know both because I tried to pollish both to "pretty up" my airplane. The carbon fiber can't be polished. The damage allowances are quite different for each as well. The GE turkey feather can take quite a bit of damage, whereas the PW carbon fiber one can not, before having to be replaced. Of course the F-15 doesn't use the Turkey Feathers so they don't have this problem. They also only use the PW engine.
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diamond1

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 21:41

IDCrewDawg wrote:The -229 does have a carbon fiber support ring..... The GE turkey feather can take quite a bit of damage, whereas the PW carbon fiber one can not, before having to be replaced......


The PW nozzle support is metal on all F100 models to date. (see photo below) It has almost the exact same design since the first PW-100 Eagle engines. The rolled and welded titanium alloy with internal flanges has the required strength for the hundreds of mountings in and on the support, but is still light enough for one person to pick up.

There are 30 convergent nozzle supports, with 2 bolts and 1 pin each; 15 external segment forward hinge brackets, with 4 bolts each; 15 external nozzle segment "Finger" seals, with 2 bolts each; 10 actuator supports, with 3 bolts each; 5 actuator link covers, with 2 screws each; all (100 or so) "L-Flange" bolts to secure the nozzle to the augmentor combustion chamber duct; not to mention the 5 cam-follower tracks for the nozzle synchronizing ring and 5 actuator connecting links that are on the inside diameter of the nozzle support......... (As I remember off the top of my head from my augmentor overhaul days....... :roll: )

I don't think you would be able to make a carbon fiber support with the strength required by all the parts attached to the support inside and out. There are just too many holes. If it were possible, I'm sure PW would have done so when they introduced the "new" carbon fiber feathers. After all, they had used the exact same feather design on the -100, -200, and -220. (Even though the -100's feathers were soon shed to eliminate jamming on the Eagles.)

Not sure what you doing to damage your -229's carbon fiber feathers..... Some of ours have thousands of cycles on them and they look almost new. The wear limits are quite liberal. They should all make it easy to the augmentor's overhaul interval.

There was that one nozzle that was damaged when it and the ventrals were dragged down the runway at 100+ Kts, but we won't talk about that.... :oops:

In the photo below you can clearly see the metal divergent segments/seals, as they are viewed through the aft slots in black carbon fiber Turkey Feathers; just forward of the black feathers are the finger seals that appear bright silver; next is the nozzle support assembly with the "NO PUSH" markings, it appears as an orange/silver, you can see where the separate pieces of the support are welded together; the aircraft grey “doughnut seal” is the round panel that seals the fuselage to the engine.
Attachments
-229 Nozzle.jpg
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Racer497

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Unread post13 Nov 2004, 22:49

Ok this is off the eng subject, but what is that backwards scoop where the LOX door is on the UAE and the F-16I?? Is that for a self-gen O2 system or what.
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Obi_Offiah

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Unread post14 Nov 2004, 05:07

IDCrewDawg wrote:Of course the F-15 doesn't use the Turkey Feathers so they don't have this problem. They also only use the PW engine.


Just an aside, the South Korean F-15K's will be powered by GE -129 engines. It will be interesting to hear comments about how it performs when the aircraft becomes operational and fully integrated into their airforce.

Obi
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DeepSpace

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Unread post14 Nov 2004, 07:38

Of course the F-15 doesn't use the Turkey Feathers so they don't have this problem. They also only use the PW engine.


Some Israeli F-15's do use the Turkey Feathers.

Ok this is off the eng subject, but what is that backwards scoop where the LOX door is on the UAE and the F-16I?? Is that for a self-gen O2 system or what.


In order to answer this question I need to know where the LOX door is.
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diamond1

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Unread post14 Nov 2004, 14:32

DeepSpace wrote:
Of course the F-15 doesn't use the Turkey Feathers so they don't have this problem. They also only use the PW engine.


Some Israeli F-15's do use the Turkey Feathers.


I guess so......... :oops:

The only F-15 I've ever seen with turkey feathers in the US was an F-15E years ago that was testing the GE F110 installation. Sounded odder than it looked. We saw it at Nellis AFB Fall of 1997 at Air Warrior.

I know Korea has ordered the GE engines in the F-15Ks that they have ordered.
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