Turkey to buy two Lockheed F-35 jets

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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Jan 2012, 21:58

Turkey to Buy Two Lockheed F-35 Jets, 15 Textron Helicopters
January 05, 2012, By Ali Berat Meric and Emre Peker

"Jan. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Turkey will purchase two Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 fighter jets and and 15 helicopters from Textron Inc. for the police department, the Defense Industries Undersecretary said today in a statement.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan chaired a meeting with the Defence Industries Undersecretary Murad Bayar, Defence Minister Ismet Yilmaz and the military’s Chief of General Staff Necdet Ozel today in Ankara, where the orders were approved...."

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... pters.html
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cxxtxx

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Unread post05 Jan 2012, 22:40

What better way to let Iran, Russia, China and India, (not to mention Islamic extremist and Central-Asian/Russian mafia arms dealers) to see all that wonderful 5th-generation technology than to sell TWO (2) examples to Turkey. Why bother buying, count 'em 1, 2, examples if the plan is not to sell access to anyone who wants to look at them?

My God. Really? You get the impression that LM would sell the F-35 to al-Qaeda if that would help keep the program alive.

(I'm really interested in the fanboy replies that I'm going to get for this. Really interested.)

Chad
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Jan 2012, 23:04

Turkish Decision Paves the F-35?s Way to Ankara

"The Turkish government has approved in principal the placement of an order for two Lockheed Martin F-35A 5th Generation stealth fighters, formally ending the debate on whether the country should enter the program without gaining access to fully control the aircraft operating software....

...Following a meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee (SS?K), meeting at the at the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) in Ankara, the Turkish defense authorities cleared the planned order of two F-35 fighter jets, as part of a larger acquisition that could cost up to $16 billion over the life of the program....

...Originally Ankara planned to acquire about 116 such planes, and receive its first stealth fighters in 2015, but this delivery date is also questionable due to the program’s delays.

Turkey, like other European program members insisted on receiving access to the new fighter’s source codes, seeking to maintain operational and support independence. However, Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon refused to share these codes, claiming that this ‘independence’ can be gained by interfacing at the application level, rather than lower level source code which would be too costly to manage and would have negative effect on flight safety. Foreign nations are not buying this explanation, fearing the aircraft may be ‘rigged’ with a ‘backdoor’ that would deny them using their fighters on missions that conflict with Washington’s policy.

The recent Japanese and Israeli decisions to buy the aircraft, despite not gaining such access to its operating codes may have convinced other would-be operators that the solution is manageable."

Source: http://defense-update.com/20120105_turkish_f35.html
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Unread post05 Jan 2012, 23:36

cxxtxx wrote:What better way to let Iran, Russia, China and India, (not to mention Islamic extremist and Central-Asian/Russian mafia arms dealers) to see all that wonderful 5th-generation technology than to sell TWO (2) examples to Turkey. Why bother buying, count 'em 1, 2, examples if the plan is not to sell access to anyone who wants to look at them?

My God. Really? You get the impression that LM would sell the F-35 to al-Qaeda if that would help keep the program alive.

(I'm really interested in the fanboy replies that I'm going to get for this. Really interested.)

Chad


Turkey has been a program partner for some time. The F-35 program was designed for exportable stealth, so it's not a huge national security issue.
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hb_pencil

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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 00:03

cxxtxx wrote:What better way to let Iran, Russia, China and India, (not to mention Islamic extremist and Central-Asian/Russian mafia arms dealers) to see all that wonderful 5th-generation technology than to sell TWO (2) examples to Turkey. Why bother buying, count 'em 1, 2, examples if the plan is not to sell access to anyone who wants to look at them?

My God. Really? You get the impression that LM would sell the F-35 to al-Qaeda if that would help keep the program alive.

(I'm really interested in the fanboy replies that I'm going to get for this. Really interested.)

Chad


I'm sorry but your argument is based on a series of misperceptions about Turkey and its populace.

Turkey actually is one of the most committed members of NATO alliance, and its military is staunchly pro-American due to over 70 years of defense cooperation. They are probably the most professional military in the middle east, barring Israel. We have had nuclear weapons on their soil since the mid 50s, and Turkey has dual key delivery and control over them. That means in event of war, Turkish fighters could deliver tactical nuclear weapons. We also export quite a bit of high technology equipment to them. They were one of the first customers of the F-16 and nobody has said anything about the risk of that. Its the country with the least problems with Islamic extremism in the region. These are hardly a feature of a country that is a threat to us.

Furthermore its complete fallacy that they would want to support any of these countries. First of Turks are virulently anti-Russian and definitely not pro-iranian. Sure they have links with India and China, but its no more than most. They will, in the next decade or so, join the EU and be firmly in that orbit.

If you want to worry about a country as an export risk, #1 and 2 for me are Israel and India.... not Turkey.
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 02:42

maus92 wrote:
cxxtxx wrote:What better way to let Iran, Russia, China and India, (not to mention Islamic extremist and Central-Asian/Russian mafia arms dealers) to see all that wonderful 5th-generation technology than to sell TWO (2) examples to Turkey. Why bother buying,
count 'em 1, 2, examples if the plan is not to sell access to anyone who wants to look at them?

My God. Really? You get the impression that LM would sell the F-35 to al-Qaeda if that would help keep the program alive.

(I'm really interested in the fanboy replies that I'm going to get for this. Really interested.)

Chad


Turkey has been a program partner for some time. The F-35 program was designed for exportable stealth, so it's not a huge national security issue.


Which is precisely why the claims that the F-35 is the stealthiest aircraft in existence (RCS superior to the F-22) seem utterly absurd, and the assertions that US aircraft will be basically the same as foreign modifications just don't seem logical.
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cxxtxx

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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 03:12

hb_pencil wrote:I'm sorry but your argument is based on a series of misperceptions about Turkey and its populace.

Turkey actually is one of the most committed members of NATO alliance, and its military is staunchly pro-American due to over 70 years of defense cooperation. They are probably the most professional military in the middle east, barring Israel. We have had nuclear weapons on their soil since the mid 50s, and Turkey has dual key delivery and control over them. That means in event of war, Turkish fighters could deliver tactical nuclear weapons. We also export quite a bit of high technology equipment to them. They were one of the first customers of the F-16 and nobody has said anything about the risk of that. Its the country with the least problems with Islamic extremism in the region. These are hardly a feature of a country that is a threat to us.

Furthermore its complete fallacy that they would want to support any of these countries. First of Turks are virulently anti-Russian and definitely not pro-iranian. Sure they have links with India and China, but its no more than most. They will, in the next decade or so, join the EU and be firmly in that orbit.

If you want to worry about a country as an export risk, #1 and 2 for me are Israel and India.... not Turkey.


I enjoyed reading your analysis, and despite our previous confrontations, I think we can be friends. Here I think is where your analysis goes wrong.

Turkey will never have the source codes to this aircraft. Turkey knows this and Turkey resents it in a very big way. Turkey also knows--to a mathematical certainty--that their F-35's will be "turned off" if it ever comes to push and shove with Israel. Turkey also knows--or strongly suspects--that Israel's F-35's will not be turned off when it comes to push and shove with Turkey. Every living soul on this planet knows that this will be the state of affairs.

Therefore, Turkey and Israel will both have F-35 daggers, but Israel will be the only one that ever gets to use them. Does Turkey allow this to happen? Hell no. No nation on the planet would allow this to happen. Fundamentally, it is in Turkey's national interest to have the ability to neutralize F-35 technology, because as it stands now, F-35 technology is a clear and present danger to them.

What do they do? They allow the Russians and the highest bidder between China and India to examine the technology with the understanding that Turkey receives the cost-free benefits of the counter-measure research--and the instant the Russians get ahold of it, it will be sold to the Russian mafia and then everybody on the planet will have it. And what a poker chip to have with China and India! Turkey can spend that chip many different ways.

"We want two!" This play is so freakin obvious--because Turkey has no other choice--it's laughable. And even better, the Russians might need the help of the Russian mafia operating within Israel--to get the help of Israeli specialists--to figure out counter-measures...

Chad
Last edited by cxxtxx on 06 Jan 2012, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 04:07

Explain to us 'which foreign nations'? Fears and realities can be quite different. Is not it obvious that for those buying the F-35 that 'whatever fears' they may have had, that these 'fears' are no longer current. How's that. I prefer to be a NafYob meself.

I see that now you have highlighted that 'it is my post'. Whoah. I'll ensure I post a CHAD (is that a 'hanging chad'?) version next time. I guess if I was the AUTHOR of the article posted I might be more accountable.
Last edited by spazsinbad on 06 Jan 2012, 04:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 04:54

Cxxtxx, you do realize that many partner nations are buying initial examples(2 to 4 aircraft), prior to receiving larger batches. You may also want to use this site known as Google, to look and see that a number of components/sub assemblies for the F-35, are being built in Turkey. An order of 2 aircraft by no means provides any shred of evidence, that the goal is to share them with Russia/China. It sounds like you've been using your jump to conclusions mat, a little too much.
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 05:25

wrightwing wrote:You do realize that many partner nations are buying initial examples(2 to 4 aircraft), prior to receiving larger batches. An order of 2 aircraft by no means provides any shred of evidence, that the goal is to share them with Russia/China.


Can you see how your thinking merges a logical fallacy with a cognitive distortion? The fact that other partner nations are also buying 2 aircraft is irrelevant to Turkey's situation--you are using a logical fallacy when you create that linkage. You are saying, "John is buying two hamburgers, so there is nothing wrong with Sarah buying two hamburgers" without looking at Sarah's specific situation. Then, you are merging that with a cognitve distortion, "An order of 2 aircraft by no means provides any shred of evidence, that the goal is to share them with Russia/China." That's correct for as far as it goes, but stopping your brain at that stage will always lead to false conclusions. You're saying, "buying two hamburgers by no means provides any shred of evidence of something else..." Are you sure, and if so, now what? You will always "think" you are correct when you truncate your thinking at that stage--but you never will be--even if you manage to guess the "right" answer.

Do you see this?

Chad
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 09:18

cxxtxx wrote:What better way to let Iran, Russia, China and India, (not to mention Islamic extremist and Central-Asian/Russian mafia arms dealers) to see all that wonderful 5th-generation technology than to sell TWO (2) examples to Turkey. Why bother buying, count 'em 1, 2, examples if the plan is not to sell access to anyone who wants to look at them?

My God. Really? You get the impression that LM would sell the F-35 to al-Qaeda if that would help keep the program alive.

(I'm really interested in the fanboy replies that I'm going to get for this. Really interested.)

Chad


I know man! Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two aircraft as well and the UK has only ordered 3 and Australia a slightly more impressive 14, but still low. Man the US is SO stupid...

Clearly all these countries are buying minimum numbers so they can steal the technology. That is the ONLY possible conclusion...

Or maybe, these are INITIAL orders with larger orders to follow? That couldn't be the case could it? I mean it's not as if each of the partner nations has been planning to acquire JSF's in this fashion since 2002 or earlier, is it?
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 10:24

cxxtxx wrote:Yep, I was right! Can there be any bigger showing that munny agrees completely, but is so utterly disturbed and threatened by my post that he has to revert to being a 4-year old? That's all he is intellectually? My God, it's pathetic. I'm surprised that he didn't defecate in his pants and throw it at me


Crikey this AND an abusive PM in my inbox as well. I wonder what nerve I struck there? Its all becoming clear... paranoia, anger management issues...

I'm sorry, were you expecting some sort of respect after already derailing a number of threads with political flaming and personal insults to other members?
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 12:15

cxxtxx wrote:
Turkey will never have the source codes to this aircraft. Turkey knows this and Turkey resents it in a very big way. Turkey also knows--to a mathematical certainty--that their F-35's will be "turned off" if it ever comes to push and shove with Israel. Turkey also knows--or strongly suspects--that Israel's F-35's will not be turned off when it comes to push and shove with Turkey. Every living soul on this planet knows that this will be the state of affairs.

(1) Just like the Turkish F-16 program a large portion of the Turkish F-35 will be produced under licence by Turkish Aerospace Industries in Turkey (with technology transfer). Eventually Turkey will also be a final assembly point.
(2) The cost of producing advanced composites in Turkey is much cheaper than in the US. Accordingly, Lockheed Martin has developed a long term relationship with Turkish Aerospace Industries for joint production of fuselages, optics etc.
(3) The F-35 is not the sole combat aircraft platform in Turkey's air force inventory. Turkey operates approximately 240 advanced F-16 Block 50+. It would also be wise to note here that Turkey is the only country outside of the USA to have full source codes for the F-16. Turkey also retrofits and modernizes its vipers on its own. Turkish vipers also use many indigenously designed and developed sub-systems.

In addition to this Turkey currently has a combat aircraft project of its own, the TF-X. Brazil (Embraer) South Korea (KAI) and Sweeden (Saab) is also interested in working with Turkey on this project.

Accordingly, the Turkish Air Force inventory will be composed of (approximately):

240- F-16 Block 50+
116- F-35
200- TF-X

Turkey accordingly has enough operational independence to deter any major threat against its territorial integrity.


Therefore, Turkey and Israel will both have F-35 daggers, but Israel will be the only one that ever gets to use them. Does Turkey allow this to happen? Hell no. No nation on the planet would allow this to happen. Fundamentally, it is in Turkey's national interest to have the ability to neutralize F-35 technology, because as it stands now, F-35 technology is a clear and present danger to them.

LOL

What do they do? They allow the Russians and the highest bidder between China and India to examine the technology with the understanding that Turkey receives the cost-free benefits of the counter-measure research--and the instant the Russians get ahold of it, it will be sold to the Russian mafia and then everybody on the planet will have it. And what a poker chip to have with China and India! Turkey can spend that chip many different ways.

If only geo-politics was as easy as this.

"We want two!" This play is so freakin obvious--because Turkey has no other choice--it's laughable. And even better, the Russians might need the help of the Russian mafia operating within Israel--to get the help of Israeli specialists--to figure out counter-measures...

Perhaps the figure below may enlighten you.
Image


Chad
...[/img]
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cxxtxx

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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 14:44

Conan wrote:I know man! Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two aircraft as well and the UK has only ordered 3 and Australia a slightly more impressive 14, but still low. Man the US is SO stupid...


Same defective thinking as the post above--merging a logical fallacy with a cognitive distortion.

A post in red type that smacks of desperation, munny keeps throwing his poop...is this a fanboy sewing circle or what??

Chad
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Unread post06 Jan 2012, 15:16

cxxtxx wrote: Can you see how your thinking merges a logical fallacy with a cognitive distortion? The fact that other partner nations are also buying 2 aircraft is irrelevant to Turkey's situation--you are using a logical fallacy when you create that linkage. You are saying, "John is buying two hamburgers, so there is nothing wrong with Sarah buying two hamburgers" without looking at Sarah's specific situation. Then, you are merging that with a cognitve distortion, "An order of 2 aircraft by no means provides any shred of evidence, that the goal is to share them with Russia/China." That's correct for as far as it goes, but stopping your brain at that stage will always lead to false conclusions. You're saying, "buying two hamburgers by no means provides any shred of evidence of something else..." Are you sure, and if so, now what? You will always "think" you are correct when you truncate your thinking at that stage--but you never will be--even if you manage to guess the "right" answer.

Do you see this?

Chad


I base my judgements on the evidence at hand. The British could potentially be planning to re-colonize the USA, but that's not a conclusion that I'm going to jump to, till I see some evidence leading me to believe that it's a likely scenario. There simply is no precedent to go by, to speculate that Turkey wants to share technology with Russia/China, so that they can fight Israel.
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