UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 May 2018, 14:38

The three page PDF article above/previous page is now online: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -e-447765/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post09 May 2018, 14:56

Oh GAWD! The 'LIGHTING' is back to haunt us all - maybe that is a good nickname for the aircraft - LIGHTING ALIGHTING!
U.K. Carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth Set for U.S. Visit, F-35B Trials
09 May 2018 Jon Rosamond

"...it has long been known that the U.K. would require U.S. Marine Corps F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighters to bolster its small number of jets on the 70,000-ton carriers, particularly during their early deployments....

...The British carrier completed rotary wing trials in February this year, conducting 450 deck landings with Chinook Mk 5 helicopters and 540 landings with Merlin Mk 2 aircraft. Both types flew an average of 10 hours per day in all weather conditions, generating data that will enable technical staff to draw up ship helicopter operating limits. Amphibious warfare trials were also conducted, with a detachment of Royal Marines commandos simulating an air assault from the ship.

Queen Elizabeth is now alongside in Portsmouth naval base on England’s south coast, covered in tents and scaffolding for a 13-week capability insertion period (CIP) in preparation for an inaugural transatlantic voyage in September. The ship will then conduct a long-awaited first flight trials with F-35B aircraft and is also expected to visit New York City....

...Various fixed-wing landing aids are being installed during the CIP, chief among them the U.S.-designed AN/SPN-41/41A Instrument Carrier Landing System. With an azimuth antenna at the stern of the ship and an elevation antenna on the aft island, this system transmits flight path information to approaching aircraft, which can be viewed in the pilot’s head-up display.

Defense science company Qinetiq has developed a flight deck lighting [why not call / type LIGHTNING?] array – dubbed the Bedford array – to assist F-35B rolling vertical landings, but this will be fitted initially to the future Prince of Wales as a technology demonstrator.

Maintenance is being carried out on the thermal metal spray coating that has been applied to aft sections of Queen Elizabeth’s flight deck, designed to protect it from jet blast during F-35B vertical landings, when temperatures could hit 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit...." [we all know what is going on here - insufficient knowledge - just repeating shite memes]

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/05/09/u-k-ca ... 35b-trials
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post17 May 2018, 06:25

'Undetectable' F-35 jets from US to arrive in UK in June
16 May 2018 SKYnews

"The first F35 fighter jets will arrive in the UK next month, two months ahead of schedule, the Defence Secretary has announced. Four of the cutting-edge fighters will fly trans-Atlantic from their current home in the US, with several air-to-air refuelling serials en route and will be based at RAF Marham in Norfolk....

...The news was announced by the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson on the 75th anniversary of the daring night-time mission...."



Source: https://news.sky.com/story/undetectable ... e-11374579
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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hythelday

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Unread post17 May 2018, 13:37

Not confirmed by other sources (yet), but, TBH, not entirely out of the question.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... ssion=true
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Unread post17 May 2018, 13:47

Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory and a Trial Balloon of BullDust I reckon but wot the THREAD TITLE SAYS!

TELEtubbie ARSTICKLE above Quoted Below.....
Dogfight over UK's pledge to buy American fighter jets 'could play out like the Westland affair'
16 May 2018 Dominic Nicholls & Robert Mendick

"...The British Government is committed to buying 138 F-35 fighter aircraft from US manufacturer Lockheed Martin. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has so far bought 48 aircraft at a cost of £9.1 billion but is now reconsidering its pledge to buy a further 90 F-35s.

Instead, the Telegraph understands it is looking at purchasing Eurofighter jets, made by a European consortium that includes the UK. The European manufactured jets are currently, on best estimates, about half the price of an F-35.

Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary, is publishing a defence review in July, which may cast doubt on the affordability of the further 90 F-35 Lightning II aircraft, the most expensive but technically advanced fighter jet in history.

He has also launched a Combat Aircraft Industrial Strategy, due to report in the summer, which is set to decide the balance of future spending on jet fighters - and whether the UK goes for a predominantly European fighter, despite Brexit, or a US-developed jet....

...well-placed sources have told The Telegraph that the purchase of the extra 90 F-35s is being re-evaluated. The MoD made a commitment to buy 138 F-35s in its Strategic Defence and Security Review of 2015. The MoD is currently negotiating with the Joint Program Office, the US department in charge of contracts, over the cost of the Lockheed Martin built aircraft.

The Conservative MP Mark Francois, a former defence minister, and a member of the defence select committee, said: “We are sceptical about the viability of all 138 aircraft, which is what we are theoretically committed to. Unless Lockheed Martin can bring the cost down, the F-35 will suck up other funds for other programmes in the defence budget. If the costs continue as they are that will have a serious knock-on effect to the rest of the defence spending programme.”

He added: “The MoD are looking again at the costs of the F-35. The question remains from aircraft 49 onwards how many of these are you going to end up buying and the MoD is looking at that at the moment.”...

...The Eurofighter Typhoon, jointly built by the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, is already in service with the RAF but will require a mid-life upgrade to compete with the pricier but technologically more advanced F-35. In a possible indication of MoD thinking, it has emerged that the UK Government has been lobbying its Belgian counterparts to buy the Eurofighter in preference to the F-35....

...An MoD spokesman said it was too soon to speculate on the outcome of the review. The spokesman said: “The F-35 programme remains on track and within budget, providing a game-changing capability for our Armed Forces. We continue to drive down costs with every purchase and remain committed to purchasing 138 F-35 Lightning aircraft while British industry benefits from an order book of over 3,000 jets.”" [THE STORM IN THE TEACUP IS OVER AND OUT]

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... play-like/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post17 May 2018, 14:29

The figure of 190 million pounds ($256 million) for a F-35B seems quite high to me. Shouldn't the UK be getting non-FMS prices, i.e. the same price as the US government pays for the F-35B?

This debate, while surprising as the UK has been a key JSF participant for a long time, does parallel debates in all three other Eurofighter manufacturers. Germany is debating replacing its Tornados with F-35s or Typhoons (meanwhile existing Typhoons are not ready for combat). Italy's likely incoming government (the League and Five Star) is pro-Putin and seemingly skeptical of the F-35. Finally, Spain hasn't adopted either the F-35A or F-35B but it seems like the F-35 would be a logical option.
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Unread post17 May 2018, 14:41

It almost sounds as if the Canadian model of aircraft acquisition is spreading ?

Canada, India, the U.K....
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Unread post17 May 2018, 22:27

Brit newspapers have a reputation for 'making stuff up' when they are just 'stuffing up'. One could check elsewhere for the cost but I recall reading complaints about how the UK MoD does not specify the 'actual cost' of an airframe. What we MAY see is the overall costs which includes the KITCHEN bloody SINK matey. Anyway the UK buys F-35Bs with the USMC currently in LRIP batches so that is the cost if one bothers to total that up. The newspapers won't though because THEY GO BIG or THEY DON'T Publish - for the clickbait innit. Meanwhile back in the real world - not made of imagination via printers ink online.
F-35s to come home for the first time next month
16 May 2018 RN PR

"The Navy’s ‘jets of tomorrow’ will fly into their new home on British soil early next month. Four F-35Bs will arrive in the first tranche of stealth fighters to transfer from the USA to the UK, flying into RAF Marham in East Anglia....

...Two RN and two RAF pilots will be at the controls of the multi-million pound aircraft for the transatlantic flight; they are assigned to the newly-reformed – and legendary – 617 Squadron, the Dambusters. Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson used the 75th anniversary of the squadron’s finest hour to announce that, weather allowing, the new jets would cross the Atlantic in early June....

...Fliers have been practising for the 4,150-mile flight from the US Marine Corps air base at Beaufort in South Carolina, where British air and ground crews are trained to operate and maintain the state-of-the-art jet, to Marham, in particular conducting air-to-air refuelling with RAF tankers high above the Eastern Seaboard of the USA. And similarly the joint RN-RAF team at RAF Marham have been readying for the F-35s’ arrival with a new Lightning Force HQ, dedicated hangars, resurfaced runways, new canteen and gym and accommodation...."

Source: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... next-month
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post18 May 2018, 05:23

spazsinbad wrote:Brit newspapers have a reputation for 'making stuff up' when they are just 'stuffing up'. ...


I might agree that the Bee's have a price that requires keeping an eye on ... might ..

But if it gets close I see them just switching to A's for some number of the remaining orders, which exchange rates, local manufacture, or whatever ... I would still be willing to bet are cheaper than the Tiffy, if the Bee isn't ... BS click bait here... "stuffing up."

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Unread post18 May 2018, 06:25

:devil: I coulda said 'stuffing up their collective KHYBER' butt I didn't - PASS. How 'bout "where the sun doan shine"? :doh: :roll:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post18 May 2018, 06:44

OK back on topic <sigh> (as this article suggests 'wait for the controversy'....) I say WAIT FOR THE USMC onboard QE! :shock: 8)
Why F-35 trials aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth will be conducted by American jets flown by British pilots
17 May 2018 George Allison

"The first jets that will perform F-35 trials on-board HMS Queen Elizabeth will be mostly American owned aircraft but flown by British pilots.

The aircraft that will be landing on the supercarrier will belong to the Joint Operational Test team. The team’s mission is to build confidence in the aircraft towards helping clear the F-35 to make the legally mandated advance from Low Rate Initial Production to Full Rate Production. The RAF’s No 17 (Reserve) Test and Evaluation Squadron comprises ten percent of the test program in the JOTT we understand. [ALSO earlier in this thread it has been explained that certain 'orange wires' are wired in a certain way for certain test point collecting such as when on the ski jump - I'll have to find it later]

The reason that most if not all of the aircraft to touch down will be American isn’t some scandalous outrage (just watch how some papers report this, though) but rather most of the F-35Bs in Joint Operational Test team are American.

After speaking to one of the pilots in the test programme, we understand that the UK only has three (BK1, 2 & 4) test jets that are “orange wired” to take data for post-flight analysis, the rest being operational aircraft. Therefore, it is highly likely that the jets to go on HMS Queen Elizabeth later this year will be “mostly, if not entirely, American but flown by UK pilots”.

We were told that the reason for this is that the JOT team dictate the availability of test jets out of a pool. Our contact said:
“It would be nothing more than symbolic to make UK jets available for the trials and that comes at a significant effort since all of them are based at Edwards AFB in California, not on the East Coast where the ship trial is due to take place.

Therefore, the most obvious and cheaper choice is to use the F-35B test jets based at Pax River, which are US ones. British test pilots like Andy Edgell, Nath Gray, will obviously fly them but there’ll be US pilots too because that’s how Joint Test works.”


A Ministry of Defence (MoD) spokesman confirmed:
“As the US’s biggest partner in the F-35 programme, we jointly own test jets which are on track to fly off the deck of our new aircraft carrier later this year. We will continue to work with our American allies on these trials, and plan for the first momentous landing on HMS Queen Elizabeth to be a British pilot.”


Just wait for this perfectly reasonable bit of trivia to become the subject of the next overblown and sensationalised headlines regarding the new aircraft carriers."

Source: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/why-f-3 ... sh-pilots/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post18 May 2018, 13:58

I wonder if the Brits are making a mistake, ordering all B's...

If memory serves, their carrier has a provision for removing the ski jump and going with a catapult based system. If that's the case, buying even a small number of C's would bring some advantages. Not the least of which would be a much longer ranged strike option. Yes, yes I understand they'd then have a mixed fleet and that might be more expensive but.... Isn't the C cheaper than the B anyway? And in addition to range, you'd have the ability to carry 2,000lb JDAM's, not just 1,000 pounders...
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Unread post18 May 2018, 14:05

mixelflick wrote:I wonder if the Brits are making a mistake, ordering all B's...

If memory serves, their carrier has a provision for removing the ski jump and going with a catapult based system. If that's the case, buying even a small number of C's would bring some advantages. Not the least of which would be a much longer ranged strike option. Yes, yes I understand they'd then have a mixed fleet and that might be more expensive but.... Isn't the C cheaper than the B anyway? And in addition to range, you'd have the ability to carry 2,000lb JDAM's, not just 1,000 pounders...


You seem to be under the impression that Royal Navy has the £££ for that.
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Unread post18 May 2018, 16:05

mixelflick wrote:buying even a small number of C's would bring some advantages. Not the least of which would be a much longer ranged strike option.


Per the latest FY2019 SAR, the "demonstrated performance" of the C over the A in terms of range is a whopping 1 nmi (270 vs 269.... drag is a bitch). For that 1 nmi, you have to contend with a much higher price, less acceleration, only 7.5g instead of 9g turning, higher operating expenses, etc.

If they go for a mixed fleet, stick with the A.
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Unread post18 May 2018, 16:09

SpudmanWP wrote:
mixelflick wrote:buying even a small number of C's would bring some advantages. Not the least of which would be a much longer ranged strike option.


Per the latest FY2019 SAR, the "demonstrated performance" of the C over the A in terms of range is a whopping 1 nmi (270 vs 269.... drag is a bitch). For that 1 nmi, you have to contend with a much higher price, less acceleration, only 7.5g instead of 9g turning, higher operating expenses, etc.

If they go for a mixed fleet, stick with the A.


Wow. I'll bet that came as a nasty shock. Hasn't the C always been claimed to have much more range than the A or B?
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