Pakistani Air Force - Red Flag 10-4

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pakviper

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Unread post05 May 2010, 23:46

Hi All!

When is 2010's red flag excercise taking place? will it be in Alaska? I've heard that this time around Pakistan Air Force has also been invited to participate, with its new block-52s, and pilots who're already there in Arizona for conversion. what other countries are amongst the participants?
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yasirbhojani

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Unread post06 May 2010, 00:51

I believe that three waves have already taken place this year, the only new participant as far as I know, was the RNoAF ( Norwegian Air Force ) which sent in their F-16s in the first wave, and I am not sure that whether the RNLAF ( Dutch Air Force ) participated for the first time in Red Flag this year in the first wave or not, but yeah, I heard that too. PAF's Air Chief Marshal clearly stated that F-16s will take part in Red Flag this year in June, but he didn't mention that whether Block 52 vipers will take part or not, and I didn't read it anywhere too. F-16C/D Block 52 or the old vipers, PAF will participate for sure, but confirmation by anyone would be appreciated about the dates and all.
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Yasir Bhojani
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HaveVoid

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Unread post06 May 2010, 01:41

According to Nellis AFB's website, Red Flag 10-4 is 19-30 July. As far as the PAF Vipers being there, I can only hope. Imma be out there. Now you've gone and gotten me all excited!
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avon1944

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Unread post06 May 2010, 02:03

The PAF being there means the Indian AF won't be there... correct?
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pakviper

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Unread post06 May 2010, 06:20

@yasir, almost all of our block-15 F-16A/Bs are currently going through the MLU program, and gradually will re-enter paf service in phases over the span of 3years. hence, as far as i can tell block 52s will be there for red-flag. Paf will learn alot from their american counter parts, and their experience will be worth while,as USAF pilots are very good in dissimilar Air COmbat training.
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deadseal

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Unread post06 May 2010, 10:08

Anyone know who is going to alaska this summer?
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HaveVoid

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Unread post06 May 2010, 15:04

avon1944 wrote:The PAF being there means the Indian AF won't be there... correct?


I would say that that is a safe assumption, to say the least...
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pakviper

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Unread post06 May 2010, 18:47

perhaps indians dont want to let themselves down again, sending novices in russian pile of junk, huh! the so-called Su-30MKI!!!! show boating with their cobra maneuvers, thats it and waering flashy sunglasses.they lack professional skills and knowledge in a demanding scenario of excercises like red-flag., PAF, is a small, but potent,effective, skilled,efficient and professional, ask the pilots at arizona ANG who trained them and look into aviation history books.

i dont think that indias MRCA project is going to materialise anytime soon. they have the money, but its a far cry at the moment. flying 40year old planes is onething, but having lack of experience, professionalism, and what not is another story. indian air force has the highest attrition rate/accident rate worldwide. on average they lose 40 aircraft per year on average. at paf we fly less, but keep our effectiveness top notch, and 90% fleet serviceable, our attrition rate is amongst the lowest regardless of having only 500fighter aircraft in our inventory.
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HaveVoid

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Unread post06 May 2010, 19:06

pakviper wrote:perhaps indians dont want to let themselves down again, sending novices in russian pile of junk, huh! the so-called Su-30MKI!!!! show boating with their cobra maneuvers, thats it and waering flashy sunglasses.they lack professional skills and knowledge in a demanding scenario of excercises like red-flag., PAF, is a small, but potent,effective, skilled,efficient and professional, ask the pilots at arizona ANG who trained them and look into aviation history books.

i dont think that indias MRCA project is going to materialise anytime soon. they have the money, but its a far cry at the moment. flying 40year old planes is onething, but having lack of experience, professionalism, and what not is another story. indian air force has the highest attrition rate/accident rate worldwide. on average they lose 40 aircraft per year on average. at paf we fly less, but keep our effectiveness top notch, and 90% fleet serviceable, our attrition rate is amongst the lowest regardless of having only 500fighter aircraft in our inventory.


I'm not one of the SU-30 Venerating gloom and doom types that sometimes frequent these forums, however I will respond to this. There is no evidence that supports that the SU-30MKI is in any way a "Russian Pile of Junk". While clearly designed for a different role than any of the aircraft in the PAF's inventory, it still accomplishes its role, having a large payload and long range. I think the number of nations that have purchased it, from Algeria to Vietnam, indicates that the aircraft isn't the piece of trash that you implied. Yes, the IAF has a high accident rate, but that is mainly limited to the 40+ year old designs that you mentioned. How many of their SU-30s, MiG-29s, or Mirage 200os have you heard about crashing lately?

Now, on the PAF side, I agree that they are an impressive force for their size. It is also likely that with the superior training they recieve, especially with this new batch of F-16s, that they are superior to their IAF counterparts in some ways. With the delivery of these aircraft, the upgrade of the old to MLU standard, and the acquisition of AMRAAM, it is possible that the PAF will regain the lead in the BVR arena, seeing as the IAF has never been too keen to demonstrate if its legendary Bars radar/ RVV-AE missile combo works as well as they would have you believe. Also, you mentioned MRCA, it looks like the PAF is much more successful at managing procurement (JF-17, F-16, J-10)

Ultimately, one sided, clearly biased posts like that never reflect the reality of the situation
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pakviper

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Unread post06 May 2010, 19:31

@havevoid, im not biased at all, my discussion is based on the limited knowledge i have. Russian engines have next to zero reliability, and they breakdown frequently. that is why only an initial batch of our jf-17s will have the rd-93 engine. the american pilot who spoke at red flag previously when india took part, said that the indians were confused, they had no clue what was going on, they were shooting friendlies. they have the quantity, but quality of their pilots is lacking, could be the reason for accident ratio there. alot depends on training as well, in our 30years of f-16 operation we've lost only 4birds, a couple due to bird hits, 1 friendly fire incident and lastly crash

after the MLU program is completed, by how much will the service life be extended of our block-15 F-16A/Bs, and what about their mission effectiveness for various sorties?
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yasirbhojani

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Unread post06 May 2010, 21:09

I think this should help make things clearer :-






"This is all Pakistan getting

Source :- Written Statement of Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, USN Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia 16 September 2008


Written Statement of
Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, USN
Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency
Before the
House Committee on Foreign Affairs
Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia
16 September 2008

Introduction

Mr. Chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the Pakistan F-16 program. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency is the Department of Defense Agency responsible for U.S. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programs. Pakistan is one of the many countries that the U.S. supports, and the largest FMS program that Pakistan has with the U.S. is the F-16 program. The Lockheed Martin Corporation produced F-16 Fighting Falcon is a multi-role jet fighter aircraft originally developed for the United States Air Force. Designed as a lightweight fighter, it has evolved into a successful multirole aircraft. This aircraft serves as an air superiority fighter with air-to-air, air-to-ground, and close air support missions. The F-16’s versatility has proven a success on the export market, having been selected to serve in the air forces of more than 25 nations.
1
Program Specifics
Pakistan presently operates forty-six F-16A/B aircraft. Thirty-two of these aircraft remain from the original forty aircraft that Pakistan bought in the 1980s. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred fourteen Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/B aircraft to Pakistan. The current Pakistan F-16 program is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOAs). The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011. It is important to note that none of the aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan until the Administration ensures that Pakistan is in compliance with the LOA security notes, and the Administration has so advised Congress.
The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: five hundred AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); seven hundred and fifty Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs; seven hundred BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs; five hundred Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; sixteen hundred Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010. However, I would like to emphasize that none of these weapons will be delivered until Pakistan complies with the LOA security notes and the Administration reports compliance to Congress.
The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of forty-six aircraft: four of these aircraft are in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the MLU program. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date.
The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to other F-16A/B customers. Falcon STAR replaces critical structural components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life of 8,000 spectrum hours. Falcon STAR is required to keep the original thirty-two PAF F-16A/Bs air worthy.
The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The MLU kit replaces most of the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan’s original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.

Regarding program status, the first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now. The USAF schedule for delivery of these aircraft is December 2011. The delivery dates for the remaining aircraft are being refined due to the recent stop work.
Conclusion
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this important program with you. I look forward to answering any questions that you may have."
Regards
Yasir Bhojani
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93-3542

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Unread post07 May 2010, 10:42

We just completed Red flag 10-2, the next one is 10-3 sched for june and 10-4 is sched for Aug, participants vary for each flag they usally are not set untill a few weeks proir.
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Unread post07 May 2010, 17:48

93-3542 wrote:We just completed Red flag 10-2, the next one is 10-3 sched for june and 10-4 is sched for Aug, participants vary for each flag they usally are not set untill a few weeks proir.



Is this for Red Flag Alaska? I assume so by looking at your location
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airmarshal

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Unread post03 Jul 2010, 19:35

Nellis AFB Red Flag Schedule for fiscal year 2010:

Units participating in Red Flag exercises are subject to change.

Red Flag Participating Flying Units
19-30 July


Red Air
65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16)
64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)

Interdiction
92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
9 MRS, PAF (F-16B)
425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG)
VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)

Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
77 FS, Shaw AFB, S.C. (F-16CM)
VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)

Command and Control
552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
NATO (E-3)
Special Ops, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)

Aerial Refueling
22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)

Aviation Photography Days
Red Flag aviation photography day will be held July 21, for photographers with a letter from an official editor providing intent to publish.

Source: http://www.nellis.af.mil/library/flyingoperations.asp
PAF Falcons
www.paffalcons.com
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Jensen

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Unread post04 Jul 2010, 21:12

airmarshal wrote:Red Air
65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16)
64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)


Is that realy right? How could that happend by their own public affairs office? Damned...... 8)
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