F-16 vs SU-30

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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Pakistaniboi

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Unread post21 Sep 2003, 16:14

This is a question that everyone of my friends ask each other. Well what about your opinion?

Well I think that the F-16 has an edge over the Su-30 is that the F-16 is a much maneuverable aircraft. While the Su-30 can carry a much larger payload and is much faster than the F-16.

So what do you guys say?

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Unread post21 Sep 2003, 19:27

Off course... The F-16 is more maneuverable than Su-30. and in my opinion Su-30 has large body scale which cause difficulty in its maneuvers.

muneeb
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DeepSpace

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Unread post21 Sep 2003, 19:54

Well, the SU-30MKII of the Indian AF has thrust-vectoring, so it's obvious that it's more maneuverable than the F-16.
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Normsta3

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Unread post21 Sep 2003, 22:45

Okay, can anyone provide me with a link to a page or website that is JUST about the Su-30, because when I went to search on the web, often times it is only mentioned in passing, and I don't have a whole lot of data to work with, :? . Oh yeah, and which version of the Su-30 are we dealin' with here Pakistaniboi, a specific version or the entire Su-30 family vs. the entire F-16 family?
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Unread post22 Sep 2003, 00:56

I think that no matter how good some foreign piece of equipment is, I will always stick with good old American ingenuity! :P
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Pakistaniboi

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Unread post22 Sep 2003, 05:46

Normsta3, I am comparing the whole family of Su-30 and the whole family of the F-16.
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Unread post22 Sep 2003, 11:53

Well, it's pretty hard because the early F-16A/B were lighter than todays F-16C/D Blocks 40,50,52+ and 60. Also, the SU-30 has some different versions, such as I mentioned above, the SU-30MKII has thrust-vectoring.

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Unread post22 Sep 2003, 16:15

I think the SU-30MKII is good then F-16 because what an airforce want to have, an aircraft which can carry much load and its speed is good and the SU-30 is good because it can carry much load as well as it got much greater speed than F-16.
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Normsta3

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Unread post22 Sep 2003, 17:07

Okay, I think we need to clear up some things.

Yes, the Su-30 has a speed advantage over our Falcon, but the Falcon most likely has better acceleration, which is important in dogfights. And though the Su-30MII has thrust - vectoring, it wouldn't be a so great a task to equip the latest F-16s with a thrust - vectoring nozzle if need be, now would it.

As for the Su-30 carrying more than the F-16, maybe if we're dealing with the earlier F-16 models, yes, but not against the likes of Block 52+ & 60, much less the F-16XL. Being a Su, the -30 has many things goin' for it, but were talkin' about it up against THE ENTIRE F-16 family. It isn't that good in my humble opinion, but hey, that's just me, :wink: .
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elp

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Unread post23 Sep 2003, 21:32

I wouldn't want my life to depend on having to keep a tally on an F-16 in wvr combat. You loose sight of it, it could be all over for you. On the other hand the big SU would be easier to keep a tally on. If you have the opportunity,.... sit in a SU- single seater or a SU-30 two seater and try and see directly behind you. Now try the same with the F-16 :wink: Having said all that, wvr is getting murderous with these high off-boresight missiles which will equip the SU. and later everyone else. It will be a while before the high off bore-sight AIM-9x gets into the field for the F-16. Go to the Raytheon website and watch the AIM-9x video and then tell me you want to go into close wvr combat :shock:

The Israelis will have their helmet / heater combo up and running someday, etc. etc. thrust vectoring or absolute turning ability won't help you here. You'll just be dead.

BVR- So far the R-77 which we are all supposed to cower in fear at its mention is ... unproven in combat. Not to mention vendor support isn't exactly the picture of health. Not so with the shorter ranged AMRAAM.

Next. The big radars in the SU.... hard to say. Going head to head it will be trying to pick up a very small F-16 target, so lock up range is as far as public consumption goes: Unknown. On the reverse you have some pretty high tech radar on the F-16 trying to pick up an incredibly huge target like the SU.... who will detect first ?

Since the title of the thread is X vs Y. I look at an combat aircraft as a complete system. Now if you are talking A2G... If you had a "bomb comp" today, the F-16 would win, by virture of a large menu of proven all weather PGMs. Until the SU gets something like the highly capable and inexpensive JDAM, (backed up by a secure C3 network ) it's all weather bombing ability is limited. Look at all the toys the Polish are getting in their deal. We are talking about weapons that have been out and proven. Not some inert display model hanging from a SU at an airshow. Like it or not the F-16 ability in A2G = kicking a$$ with pockets full of class... in all weather. Furthermore: A recent article in Aviation Week points out a glaring problem. There is an interesting reason the SU-30 is a 2 seat aircraft. Up to this time SU has been unable to make a single seat multirole aircraft. They can't do it yet. They haven't figured out a suitable man/machine interface with the avionics to handle the workload so as to do A2A and A2G in one jet with one person. The F-16 and F-18 have had this ability for years

From Aviation week

Singular Demands Russia's Sukhoi discusses lessons learned in struggle to develop multi-role single-seater

Russia's leading fighter designer, Sukhoi, is using the difficult experience of its moribund Su-27M development effort in revisiting a multi-role version of a single-seat Flanker.

Sukhoi is now working on the Su27SM upgrade of the Russian air force's basic Su-27 Flanker B, and five upgraded aircraft are due to be delivered by the end of this year.

The Su-27SM is a key element in the air force's upgrade program until 2015. The aircraft will eventually be replaced by whatever emerges from Sukhoi's fifth-generation fighter effort.

The single-seat Flanker B was designed only for the air-to-air role, but the manufacturer is putting together an upgrade package which will allow the platform to be used in the air-to-surface role also.

Senior Sukhoi sources have been candid in their appraisal of elements of the previous Su-27M program, and of its impact on the Su27SM effort.

"One of the main tasks we faced, and a contributory factor to the end of the Su27M program, was the problem of how to create a single-seat multi-role aircraft," a senior official said.

The Su-27M, also known as the Su35, was a major modernization of both the airframe and avionics. Initial development of the program was underway by the early 1980s, and a first prototype flew in 1988.

Developmental and production standard Su-27M/Su-35 aircraft were eventually test flown from the air force's Ahktubinsk flight test center, and more recently from the air force training center at Lipetsk.

For the air force pilots, however, this was a "negative experience," in terms of their ability to use the aircraft as a multi-role platform, the official said. "The pilots were not able to use the aircraft armament in an efficient way."


Maintenance. I want to see mission uptimes and supply chain management stuff before I buy a SU. Stand up a full squadron of these monsters and then run them through Red Flag or something similar. So far, until someone publishes some kind of useful data on the SU-30, this is a big unknown grey area. Info on the F-16 uptimes is freely available.
I also seriously doubt the SU-30 is cheaper to run ( fuel , maintenance ) .

If I had to make a safe sales decision today, it would be the F-16.
Last edited by elp on 24 Sep 2003, 18:21, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread post23 Sep 2003, 21:42

elp, I have one thing to tell you: Wait to see a movie of the Python 5 and the helmet targeting combo. This
someday
is sooner than ever. :wink:
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elp

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Unread post23 Sep 2003, 21:46

Yeah I didn't know the schedule, only that it looks like it takes all the fun out jet fighter stuff :D
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DeepSpace

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Unread post23 Sep 2003, 21:51

it looks like it takes all the fun out jet fighter stuff

:wink: :lol: If you want some more information about this "fun killer" :lol: you can go to page 8 of the topic "which version of the F-16 is the best?". I've posted there a link to some more useful information.
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Normsta3

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Unread post23 Sep 2003, 23:30

Well, unless anyone has an great objections to what elp said, I think we can all pretty sure if weren't as to which is better, 8)
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Phoenix

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Unread post24 Sep 2003, 09:26

As for F-16 vs. Su-30, my 2 cts. is that in a gun fight the Su 30 might win because it has a better turning radius and bring it's guns to bear on the F-16, but in a missile fight it could go either way.

Not to mention that in a real fight you would also (normally) have air controllers who would try to guide to the best position to start a fight.
And one problem that elp very correctly pointed out is that the SU-30 has a HUGE radar cross section compared to the F-16 and although the F-16 is not stealth, this might give the Viper driver the opportunity for a first shot.

And really now, let's hope that finding out which a/c is the best will never happen during real combat...
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