- Posts: 20
- Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 03:52
peterb wrote:Well the Typhoon is Europe's answer. How do you think it compares with it's rivals?
shep1978 wrote:It compares fairly well with its rivals, that being 4th gen fighters but being a 4th gen fighter it of course suffers from all the problems they do such as a large RCS, external weapons, mechanical scan radar etc etc.
Unfortuantly at the end of the day Typhoon is really nothing more than a 'teen' series fighter in its design philosophy and really not much more of a performer either despite what Euro fanatics try to claim.
Its use is pretty much limited to a low tech IADS threat and Typhoon is not really useable in a high threat environment making it an essentially defensive aircraft for use over friendly airspace, eg the North Sea or UK mainland in my nations case.
I know someone will pop up and claim "b..b..but Typhoon carries cruise missiles and needn't go into enemy airspace" but those people are rather misinformed about the usefullness of cruise missiles when hunting time critical targets or simply taking out low value targets that a cruise missile is complete and utter overkill for, eg a tank. Typhoon also cannot realisicly perform offensive counter air or escort missions either over anything more than a low threat IADS environment which once again limits its usefullness and value in its primary air to air role.
In my opinion we were stupid in the UK to go for an aircraft that offered nothing that the Teen series of jets offered us decades before Typhoon ever saw service except for some minor performance improvements.
We ended up with what could be decribed as a decades late Teen era fighter which is constrained by its poor RCS standards which of course I know are fairly good on paper but once you've hung your weapons off it it once again becomes a beacon for all to see.
All in all Typhoon was a good jobs program but as a combat aircraft it was a couple of decades late and by the time it arrived the game had changed.
Scorpion82 wrote:Oh dear all combat aircraft suffered from "problems" since stores were invented, a shame and no aircraft except for the mighty Raptor or Lightning II is going to be a piece of junk, unusable in any conflict.
shep1978 wrote:So you claim the Typhoon can operate in a high threat or even a medium IADS environment? Well you'll have to excuse me while I snort with laughter if you do believe that.
The worlds moved on and so have air defence systems and Typhoon is, like it or not extremely vulnerable to such systems where as the systems you deride so much, the F-22 and F-35 are believe it or not able to operate in the face of and confront such modern air defence whilst enjoying a great deal of protection due to their designs.
You can keep yammering on about how super Typhoon is all you like but few are as convinced as you. Conversly the jets you so willingly deride are being sought after by many nations. The F-22 was wanted by those who could afford or hoped they could afford it but for obvious reasons no sales where made and the F-35, well thats wanted by many many nations which speaks volumes about the potential of the jet, infact it is far more wanted by various world airforces than the Typhoon if i'm not mistaken which again speaks volumes.
Face it the Typhoons day over the modern battlespace has been and gone just like that of the teen jets.
Scorpion82 wrote:You read a lot within a few sentences. So how many multilayer IADS are operated by likely threat nations, how many stealth a/c are operated by any potential threat nation within the next 2+ decades to come? No one is disputing the advantages of stealth, but you wont sent a single aircraft into a well defended area just on good luck. Claiming the aircraft is entirely useless is a bit exeggerated like those dumb claims such as the teens provided everything 2 decades ago. But fine make claims you can not sustain and then ressort to accuse people for claiming things.
shep1978 wrote:How many nations may be operating an IADS capable of taking down Typhoons in the future is something i haven't counted, however, you can be sure the number of those nations grows with each year or two that passes, so, the number of countries that a Typhoon or similar 4th gen fighter can operate over is being limited more and more. For example if Iran does gets its claws on S-300 systems as promised there goes another nation Typhoon is sadly next to useless operating over or in nearby airspace to, Iran is a nation that is Typhoon operators currently take the threat of very seriously I should add.
Pretty much all that is needed to counter a nation that operates Typhoon is time, money and a few calls to Moscow to arrange to purcahse some modern air defence systems and your all set to be pretty much immune from any airforces that operate the Typhoon.
The MOD's and airforces of many many various nations around the world know fully well that external weapons and a non stealthy airframe are NOT the way to go for the future if they wish to remain serious about taking the fight to any potential enemy, which is something which you seem to be unable to grasp.
Also, inspite of Typhoons slightly better performance in the energy game vs teen fighters I don't buy it that it adds anything new above and over current teen series of fighters, bar an IRST which of course could be added if reqiured.
Can you to tell me what makes it so special in that respect as non of what you have listed so far convinced me.
And you believe that a handful of S300s, which aren't the very newest SAMs as well are going to defeat any decent equipped AF? There are a lot of theoretical assumptions, which aren't even based on factual evidence either. No one is going to sent one or a few aircraft out to the blue and hopes they RTB safely. As said before I don't dispute the advantages of stealth, but it's somewhat exeggerate to claim that every aircraft in the world, spare the VLO/LO designs is next to useless.
It's quite funny how everyone has no problem to accept claims for the F-22s upper superior performance, but regarding those bad evil european aircraft it's out of the realms of possibility.
Pilots seem to think different and I couldn't care less what you believe.
You claimed the Typhoon offers nothing which wasn't available to the teens 2 decades ago and I listed up a few things which were definitely not available. Changing arguments again?
shep1978 wrote:A handful of S-300 type systems or, shock horror, even more modern air defence systems would most certainly cause any Typhoon pilot to have a very bad day, to deny that is most niave of you.
Also, my first post in this thread cleary shows that i think it is a good air defence fighter when operating in a benign environment such as the North Sea so it does improve national security of its owner nations. and I never claimed Typhoon useless alltogether, just useless as a tool of foreign policy in terms of being able to strike a well defended target unless it uses cruise missiles which as I stated is far from ideal for many situations.
As to the F-22 performance being accepted by me, well yes it is but that's irrelevent here though i have to pull you up and ask just where i said Euro citizens were "evil" (as you imply) and as for Euro jets being rubbished by me;
well I simply pointed out that we missed the boat over here in that we designed conventional fighters with external missile carrage and non stealthy airframes whilst the writing has been on the wall for decades now that stealth is THE way to go.
It's hardly my fault we Euro's ended up with aircraft that are extremely suceptable to SAMs when we could have took a different, admitidly more risky path and designed a true stealth fighter as it was and still is within our capability, it probably wouldn't have even cost that much more and the benifits in times of conflict would be priceless. As it is we blew it and created a 'super teen fighter' which wasn't to bright in my opinion.
You are missing the point with my comparison to typhoon and teen fighters, my point was that Typhoon essentially offers nothing new over the teen fighters and of course Typhoon is more advanced then the 80's era Teen jets were but they have upgraded and in some cases upgraded to rival the Typhoon, see Golden Eagle's as an example. We in the Uk could have bought an upgraded F-15 AND had it in operation a decade before the Typhoon, it could than have been kept up to date (just as the typhoon is being kept up to date right now with its mech scan radar needing to be replaced soon) It would have worked out more cost effective and the end result would be no different to the user, in theis case the RAF.
Again I have to ask what does the Typhoon offer right now that teen series jets don't have? Nothing seems to be the answer except for a higher price tag and alot less less A-G usefullness.
I forgot the Typhoon is ofcourse nothing else than a jobs programme, an F-16 with 10 times the prices and a "couple" of decades late. We all know that fully integrated DAS, sensor fusion, NCW capabilities, that kind of MMI and avionics were all available to the upper US superfighters back in the 70s.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests