What will replace the Raptor?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

jetblast16

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 216
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2004, 00:12
  • Location: USA

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 01:47

Stick a fork in it, the Raptor is done, well done like a hamburger. The jet is unsurpassed
in a BVR scenario to be sure and probably for the next 15+ years, We all know it
took too long to develop and too much money, which can be attributed to politicos and changing world requirements to some extent, but it is what it is. So, what will replace the Raptor? Why ask now? Well, the USAF will have no choice but to start thinking about that within the next 5-10 years as new programs take so long to develop, which of course, increases the costs involved.

[Possible Raptor replacement]

1.) UCAV - supersonic, highly-stealthy, a lot of onboard AI, embedded weapons and
sensors. Good for 20+ G agility with super cruise
2.) Manned fighter with twin variable cycle jet engines, 50,000+ LBS each, vectored
thrust, super cruise, possible gel-based fuel for very high energy density or ability
to increase compression for more power at very high altitudes. Combined cycle
approach?
3.) Hybrid propulsion techniques?
4.) Tail-less? All vectored thrust no moving surfaces?
Offline

darkvarkguy

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 369
  • Joined: 05 Mar 2009, 06:01
  • Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 02:27

Don't forget the Magnetoplasmadynamic thruster propulsion systems.
FB-111A Pease AFB 82-87
A-10A Suwon AB ROK 87-88
FB-111A/F-111G Pease AFB 88-90
Offline

bumtish

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 237
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 15:59

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 02:34

What about a F-35D... Dwightlooi has some interesting concepts. Would it be possible to spin a F-35D airframe off the existing JSF with larger wing area, inlets modified for higher speed, more wing sweep and higher exhaust velocity for an "air dominance" optimized JSF variant?
Offline

Kryptid

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 343
  • Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:16

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 02:35

The ATF program (which eventually lead to the YF-22 and YF-23) was started in 1981. The F-15, which the F-22 is to eventually replace, was introduced in 1976. That's a 6 year gap. Also, the F-X program which spawned the F-15 was started in 1965. That's 5 years after the introduction of the F-4 Phantom II.

The F-22 was introduced in 2005, so we might expect the development of a new program in 2010 or 2011. It's quite possible that it is already underway. Boeing has already begun discussions on a sixth generation fighter. You may like to see this:

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/58787.aspx
Jesus is coming soon. Be prepared for Him.
Offline

geogen

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2919
  • Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 15:28
  • Location: 45 km offshore, New England

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 04:12

Good thread, JB.

Perhaps a no. 5.) could be: manned Finless/tailless delta-winged (perhaps with X-53 type aerolastic wing surfaces-something will have to move- can't just rely on TVC), Reverse-Thrust engine for Short landing/roadway ops, obvious high-alt, super-cruise capability, All-aspect IRST/passive sensor (off-the-shelf), seamless DIRCM, DEW, 4.3m (JASSM) class capable internal carriage... and all with upgradeable 'plug-in-open architecture' designed in from the initial operational MC block so no more of this initial fixed block bullcrapola!

So basically.. yeah, perhaps a finless, delta-winged composite-constructed, super-cruising powered F-111 Aardvark'ish variant with potential CFT to house the 4.3m class munitions! :thumb:

@ bumtish - I actually applauded Dwightlooi on that concept he posted. It is exactly the single model F-35 which shoulda/coulda been developed from inception, for both USN/USAF and FMS in mind. It could have been fielded on schedule, on cost and with full block maturity as estimated. I like to see myself on Dwight's same wavelength, although I realize he's decades and multiple brain-masses ahead of me in the sciences.

@ Kryptid - excellent brief research presented and analysis.

We'll have to keep tuned on this for sure. Someone here will no doubt update the rest of us.. Thanks in advance.
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
Offline

Tinito_16

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 764
  • Joined: 31 May 2007, 21:46

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 04:25

I think we might see not only variable cycle engines, but hypersonic capability as well. One of the next goals is to get anywhere in the world in the absolute least amount of time. As far as UCAV's, I don't think the problem of AI can be solved completly just yet, but the bandwidth problem can be. So you might see a UCAV that's actually remote controlled in the critical phases of the mission, and which would give us the capability to dogfight @ 20+ g's.
"Like the coldest winter chill, heaven beside you...hell within" Alice In Chains
Offline

geogen

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2919
  • Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 15:28
  • Location: 45 km offshore, New England

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 04:37

T, I'll toast you to that ultimate long-range hypersonic goal like the rest of us, to get anywhere in the world in the least amount of time.. but perhaps we're still talking 2040'ish delivery 7th gen? Maybe keep 6th gen more 'Simple' so that it can actually be delivered on time and in numbers required, even as a stop-gap, until the mighty star-fighters can come on-line?
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
Offline

Prinz_Eugn

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 901
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2008, 03:35

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 04:49

My gut says that it's going to be a 2-seater controlling multiple "buddy" UCAV's that will do most of the real work. That way, you have a man in the loop at the front line that doesn't have to be directly in the line of fire.
"A visitor from Mars could easily pick out the civilized nations. They have the best implements of war."
Offline

geogen

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2919
  • Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 15:28
  • Location: 45 km offshore, New England

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 06:23

Prinz_Eugn wrote:My gut says that it's going to be a 2-seater controlling multiple "buddy" UCAV's that will do most of the real work. That way, you have a man in the loop at the front line that doesn't have to be directly in the line of fire.


Interesting plan and one which I don't necessarily reject as possible. Perhaps the UCAVs however will be more autonomous such as latest and future self-navigating and sub-deploying Cruise Missiles (or a Phalanx or RAM CIW being set on Auto-fire) - rather than being RC so much? Perhaps the 2-seaters will have more input into fire over-ride and actual munition mid-course updating? Perhaps such capability is as little as 10 years away?

I'm also curious as to your 2-seater of choice going forward: upgraded F-15E variant? Follow-on Viper variants? Block III Super-Hornet? An entirely new 2-seat command and control platform?
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
Offline

sewerrat

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 287
  • Joined: 23 Mar 2009, 18:03

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 14:03

What will replace the Raptor? The F-35A will be in production through at least 2035+ . What will replace the Ratpor? A new breed of long range ramjet/rocket AAMs. Airplanes are after all just a means to deliver weapons to a target area; the F-35 is a fine U-Haul truck that acutally has IR unlike the F-22 and F-15 for advanced short ranged fart can chasers.

We're not likely to see hypersonic interceptors until pigs fly. Though technically possible, there's not much point in darting around the sky in straight lines covering a mile every second. You make a dandy target for high power lasers at that altitude. Hell even the cancelled replacement for the B-2 is just another subsonic B-2 with different skin/paint.

Continue to look for something with supercruise, manned, and single engined as a replacement for the F-22 and F-35.... Probably in about 8 years there will begin the whole "request for..." process.

All the talk of hypersonics will be limited to a few silver bullets... and of course to a new breed of cruise missile and AAMs.
Offline

hcobb

Banned

  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 27 Jul 2009, 15:31
  • Location: North California

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 15:31

Step one is to upgrade the Raptor to Fifth Generation with SAIRST.

-HJC
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2411
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 15:38

F-35D???
Offline

jetblast16

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 216
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2004, 00:12
  • Location: USA

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 15:41

All great posts so far. Right now it is a little bit early to discuss the Raptor
replacement program, but not so within 5 years or so IMHO. I think it
might be more accurate to ask, not so much what will replace the Raptor,
but what will 6th generation fighter characteristics look like. I believe that
6th gen will be more "evolutionary" than revolutionary in two key areas
that have been demonstrated as "transformational" in 5th gen fighters,
really the Raptor; these are: Low Observables on an agile airframe and
super cruise (supersonice sustained speeds without the need for fuel-
guzzling afterburners). So, a 6th gen. fighter might take super cruise to
the next level; i.e., Mach 2 at 50,000+ feet in military power with an A2A
load and stealth that is "adaptive" to a wide range of threats and is
easily maintainable in operationally siginificant environments.

I do not believe a "super" F-35 is going to cut it as a worthy replacement
to the Raptor. I do not forsee (could be totally wrong on all of this of course)
, the USAF getting away from a "hi-low" mix, so they (USAF) will seek
a "hi" replacement to the Raptor. Be definition, to supersede the Raptor,
whatever that platform(s) look like, they or it will need super curise and
better stealth. One interesting option would be to have a removeable
human-rated cockpit "module" so that the jet could be used manned or
unmanned.

Getting back to 6th gen. characteristics, another area that the platform will
need to address is DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons). Don't laugh, these
are finally starting to come into operational environments and within the
next 25 years, a mega watt-class solid state laser the size of a mini van
may be possible. The designers must take into account DEWs whether they
like it or not. Crazy as it might sound now, a DEW or DEWs on that 6th
gen. platform may be "standard" issue...

For me, the thing that most interests me in regards to a 6th gen. platform
is propulsion. You can bet your eroding bottom-dollar that there are USAF
"brass" who have been contemplating either the replacement of the fossil
fuel burning aero gas turbine (jet engine) or at the very least, ones that
are more efficient and/or produce more sustained thrust, while breaking
the need for imported oil. The last thing you want to do now and into the
foreseable future, is to become MORE dependent on fossil fuels from
potentially hostile nations. I think the most interesting and possibly
more realistic propulsion improvement would be a "combined-cycle" engine,
where everyting inside the motor is taken into consideration for propulsive
effects. However, realistically, the most likely candidate would be a high
thrust engine that produces say 40,000 LBS in mil and over 50,000 LBS
in afterburner. Then again, the Raptor replacement could be a fleet of
"modular" highly stealthy UCAV's that will cruise at 1,000 mph for 30
minutes or more, while being able to pull over 20 sustained "Gs" with manual
override by human operators in a bunker somewhere in the western
US...
Offline

hcobb

Banned

  • Posts: 221
  • Joined: 27 Jul 2009, 15:31
  • Location: North California

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 15:51

Supercruise, canards, thrust vectoring and a dashboard mounted HUD are all signs of a 4.5 Gen fighter.

A 5th Gen fighter (only the F-35 for now) will kill this hyperkinetic 4.5 Gen fighter as it comes in from any direction and tries to line up the 5th Gen in its HUD.

For a glimpse of 21st Century jet fighter combat see the sales video: http://www.youtube.com/user/F35JSFVideo ... wvnhFgzIKI

-HJC
Offline

jetblast16

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 216
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2004, 00:12
  • Location: USA

Unread post27 Jul 2009, 16:02

Ahh, DAS on the F-35 is quite impressive and it, more than likely an
evolved form will exist on the 6th gen. platform. Again, for me, it is
propulsion. The electronics and sensors go without saying. We need
propulsion break-throughs. How about being able to cruise at Mach 2
in only sustained dry thrust or being able to cruise at 1,000 mph for
over an hour. Combined with advanced stealth, possibly including optical
stealth and speed such as these, that constitutes a worthy replacement
to the Raptor. Could be all wrong of course :wink:
Next

Return to General F-22A Raptor forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 3 guests